Got me a 15 hp. generacket generator. Wondering if they make a syn. 30w? Just want some added protection for my investment...
Thnks
Thnks
syn. straight 30w for generator?
- Thread starter Doug
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Amsoil, RP, and schaeffer's make synthetic sae 30's.
I'm thinking any 30 weight synthetic is probably going to be a 10W-30 automaticly...
jsharp, I think you're right. The classifications don't really fit/describe non-mineral oils that well.
--- Bror Jace
--- Bror Jace
Last time I checked, which was some years back, AMSOIL SAE 30 synthetic would have been a 15W- if checked at lower temps.
Doug, M1 15-50 gives spectacular results in air cooled utility engines. In my opinion, it is probably the best commonly available small engine oil. I have all sorts of equipment to maintain my rural homestead, and I use my equipment hard. Florida is hot and humid which is also tough on air cooled engines. The only engine issues I have ever had were on engines not using M1. I run waterpumps and generators for many hours at a time, oftem at full load. M1 is up to that task.
Chris
Chris
Since you are using synthetic, I can't see why you would want to go to a heavier than recommended viscosity.
Since you have a pressure lube engine, the heavier weight oil is going to result in greater pumping losses. I don't know if the engine HP is marginal for the amount of Watts generated, but if it is, the heavier oil will make things worse. I don't know what your elevation is, but being in CO., that may also have an effect on engine power.
M1 10W-30 would give protection far in excess of what was needed and if nothing else, should result in SLIGHTLY better fuel economy.
Since you have a pressure lube engine, the heavier weight oil is going to result in greater pumping losses. I don't know if the engine HP is marginal for the amount of Watts generated, but if it is, the heavier oil will make things worse. I don't know what your elevation is, but being in CO., that may also have an effect on engine power.
M1 10W-30 would give protection far in excess of what was needed and if nothing else, should result in SLIGHTLY better fuel economy.
Since you are using synthetic, I can't see why you would want to go to a heavier than recommended viscosity.
Since you have a pressure lube engine, the heavier weight oil is going to result in greater pumping losses. I don't know if the engine HP is marginal for the amount of Watts generated, but if it is, the heavier oil will make things worse. I don't know what your elevation is, but being in CO., that may also have an effect on engine power.
M1 10W-30 would give protection far in excess of what was needed and if nothing else, should result in SLIGHTLY better fuel economy.
Since you have a pressure lube engine, the heavier weight oil is going to result in greater pumping losses. I don't know if the engine HP is marginal for the amount of Watts generated, but if it is, the heavier oil will make things worse. I don't know what your elevation is, but being in CO., that may also have an effect on engine power.
M1 10W-30 would give protection far in excess of what was needed and if nothing else, should result in SLIGHTLY better fuel economy.
Ok, makes sense. I'll go with a 10w30.
Cool, thanks. I'll switch to M1 15w50. Really cheap ins. since it only takes 1.5qts. MY generac also has an oil filter, so it should be well protected.
thanks again.b
thanks again.b
Bill, I will not dispute your suggestion. The engine manufacturers know what they are doing. They are suggesting an oil that will provide enough protection to ensure long engine life.
But, in my experience there is a driving factor behind the manufacturer recommended oil. The EPA. Fuel economy and emissions dictate a thin oil. Especially in an engine without any external pollution controls. Internal fluid drag does account for a substantial increase in exhaust emissions. Also engine manufacturers want to sell you engines.
Also, in pressure lubricated air cooled engines, I have found 10-30 M1 and Redline to be unable to maintain any oil pressure during a hot idle. While the engine does not generally have any load on it at idle, I still do not like zero oil pressure. M1 15-50 does far better. M1 15=50 is on the thin side, any air cooled engine that requires a 30 viscosity straight weight will operate just fine on M1 15-50. Plenty of UOA's show excellent results on M1 15 50.
When safety, reliability and long life really matters, oil viscosity is often heavier than you might expect today. Air cooled aircraft engines are a good (but certainly not the only) example. They use proper viscosity (50) oil for good reason, the oil gets quite thin at air cooled operating temps.
Chris
But, in my experience there is a driving factor behind the manufacturer recommended oil. The EPA. Fuel economy and emissions dictate a thin oil. Especially in an engine without any external pollution controls. Internal fluid drag does account for a substantial increase in exhaust emissions. Also engine manufacturers want to sell you engines.
Also, in pressure lubricated air cooled engines, I have found 10-30 M1 and Redline to be unable to maintain any oil pressure during a hot idle. While the engine does not generally have any load on it at idle, I still do not like zero oil pressure. M1 15-50 does far better. M1 15=50 is on the thin side, any air cooled engine that requires a 30 viscosity straight weight will operate just fine on M1 15-50. Plenty of UOA's show excellent results on M1 15 50.
When safety, reliability and long life really matters, oil viscosity is often heavier than you might expect today. Air cooled aircraft engines are a good (but certainly not the only) example. They use proper viscosity (50) oil for good reason, the oil gets quite thin at air cooled operating temps.
Chris
"...The engine manufacturers know what they are doing. They are suggesting an oil that will provide enough protection to ensure long engine life.
... Also engine manufacturers want to sell you engines."
Which is it?
" But, in my experience there is a driving factor behind the manufacturer recommended oil. The EPA. Fuel economy and emissions dictate a thin oil."
If you were talking about automobiles, I'd agree, but we aren't!
"Also, in pressure lubricated air cooled engines, I have found 10-30 M1 and Redline to be unable to maintain any oil pressure during a hot idle. While the engine does not generally have any load on it at idle, I still do not like zero oil pressure."
ZERO? I find that a tad hard to believe!
"M1 15=50 is on the thin side, any air cooled engine that requires a 30 viscosity straight weight will operate just fine on M1 15-50. Plenty of UOA's show excellent results on M1 15 50."
Thin side of WHAT? I currently have the same oil in my Honda walk behind mower. It definitely takes more pulls to get started in cold weather than a 10W-30 oil. It's OBVIOUS the engine does not turn as freely.
Plenty of UOA's show excellent results on FILL IN THE BLANK! It's rare to find a UOA that's bad considering the number of oils out there. How many bad ones on M! 10W-30?
"When safety, reliability and long life really matters, oil viscosity is often heavier than you might expect today. Air cooled aircraft engines are a good (but certainly not the only) example. They use proper viscosity (50) oil for good reason, the oil gets quite thin at air cooled operating temps."
Not even a close comparison to a small engine! They have totally different tolerances and requirements.
Long life really isn't a requirement either, since they MUST be overhauled at certain intervals.
... Also engine manufacturers want to sell you engines."
Which is it?
" But, in my experience there is a driving factor behind the manufacturer recommended oil. The EPA. Fuel economy and emissions dictate a thin oil."
If you were talking about automobiles, I'd agree, but we aren't!
"Also, in pressure lubricated air cooled engines, I have found 10-30 M1 and Redline to be unable to maintain any oil pressure during a hot idle. While the engine does not generally have any load on it at idle, I still do not like zero oil pressure."
ZERO? I find that a tad hard to believe!
"M1 15=50 is on the thin side, any air cooled engine that requires a 30 viscosity straight weight will operate just fine on M1 15-50. Plenty of UOA's show excellent results on M1 15 50."
Thin side of WHAT? I currently have the same oil in my Honda walk behind mower. It definitely takes more pulls to get started in cold weather than a 10W-30 oil. It's OBVIOUS the engine does not turn as freely.
Plenty of UOA's show excellent results on FILL IN THE BLANK! It's rare to find a UOA that's bad considering the number of oils out there. How many bad ones on M! 10W-30?
"When safety, reliability and long life really matters, oil viscosity is often heavier than you might expect today. Air cooled aircraft engines are a good (but certainly not the only) example. They use proper viscosity (50) oil for good reason, the oil gets quite thin at air cooled operating temps."
Not even a close comparison to a small engine! They have totally different tolerances and requirements.
Long life really isn't a requirement either, since they MUST be overhauled at certain intervals.
He didn't specify if it was 10W-40 or a straight 40 weight. My guess it's the former??quote:
Originally posted by Bror Jace:
That's interesting to know about that generator and 40 weight oils. I wonder if it's the heavier weight in general or the way 10W40s seem to shear down so quickly?
--- Bror Jace
I don't recall ever seing straight 40 weight used for L&G equipment.
My 16 year old Honda mower list's 10W-40 as one of the alternatives, but I haven't seen ANY manuals that recommend 10W-40 in the last 6-7? years.
I'm pretty sure it's the shear problem.
I won't use 5w30 in my small engines either. The coldest temperature I would ever conceivably start my engine at is around 45° and that would maybe be once every 5 years.
I'm kind of a 15w40 Delo 400 fan for my mower, although I have no problem with 10W-30 oil either.
If I was mowing commercially, I'd probably just use straight 30 and avoid VII's all together!
That's interesting to know about that generator and 40 weight oils. I wonder if it's the heavier weight in general or the way 10W40s seem to shear down so quickly?
As for 5W30 in yours, I'd change it fairly often. If you have a blackout, etc ... and run the thing hard for a day or more, I'd dump the oil as a matter of course.
5W30s thin out fairly quickly in hard-use applications ... even genuine synthetics. Air cooled engines simply run very warm.
In Maryland, I'd use 10W30 year 'round in that thing ... and still change it annually or every 10-15 hours. It's awfully cheap and easy to do ... and I'm sure you'll want to count on that generator for years to come.
--- Bror Jace
As for 5W30 in yours, I'd change it fairly often. If you have a blackout, etc ... and run the thing hard for a day or more, I'd dump the oil as a matter of course.
5W30s thin out fairly quickly in hard-use applications ... even genuine synthetics. Air cooled engines simply run very warm.
In Maryland, I'd use 10W30 year 'round in that thing ... and still change it annually or every 10-15 hours. It's awfully cheap and easy to do ... and I'm sure you'll want to count on that generator for years to come.
--- Bror Jace
I should have been more specific... The mfg states 10w40 weight oils are not to be used. The 5w30 oil I currently use is synthetic, but I will consider going to a 10w30. I change the oil yearly with about 8-10 hours of excercise and/or welding.
10w40 seems to be taking a hit here on BITOG lately... I used dino 10w40 back in the early 80's when it was popular (and probably shear prone). 10w40 PAO synthetic is a different animal, and I prefer the heavier weight in my air cooled toys and in my diesel tractor. Generac was so adament against 10w40 that I just put 5w30 synthetic in it because that's what I have available.
10w40 seems to be taking a hit here on BITOG lately... I used dino 10w40 back in the early 80's when it was popular (and probably shear prone). 10w40 PAO synthetic is a different animal, and I prefer the heavier weight in my air cooled toys and in my diesel tractor. Generac was so adament against 10w40 that I just put 5w30 synthetic in it because that's what I have available.
The manual's caution may be "son of the 10W40 gunk"
One of those rumors/myths/legends which has at least a grain of truth to it ... somewhere.
Not unlike Pennzoil = wax build up, synthetic = leaking seals, etc ...
10W40 was an early, shear-prone, gunk-prone multi-viscosity and was widely recommended at one time ... and the problems they had were fairly common ... and mostly due to neglect by owners.
--- Bror Jace
One of those rumors/myths/legends which has at least a grain of truth to it ... somewhere.
Not unlike Pennzoil = wax build up, synthetic = leaking seals, etc ...
10W40 was an early, shear-prone, gunk-prone multi-viscosity and was widely recommended at one time ... and the problems they had were fairly common ... and mostly due to neglect by owners.
--- Bror Jace
It's interesting how oil recommendations have changed over the years!
In the 70's, I used 10W-40 or 20W-50 (summer).
I did drive older cars and then was of the "thicker is better" school.
Now I'm 5w30 (winter) 10W-30 or 15w40 (if it's a higher mileage car).
Back "then", I honestly believed that there was absolutely no reason for 10W-30 since there was 10W-40!
I'm MUCH more educated now, needless to say.
IIRC, my nieces 84 Civic owners manual stated not to use 5w30 above freezing. Her new Civic is 5W-20? year around. I'm still enough "old school", that if I lived in a place like Phoenix, I'd probably use 10W-30 during the summer.
How times have changed!
In the 70's, I used 10W-40 or 20W-50 (summer).
I did drive older cars and then was of the "thicker is better" school.
Now I'm 5w30 (winter) 10W-30 or 15w40 (if it's a higher mileage car).
Back "then", I honestly believed that there was absolutely no reason for 10W-30 since there was 10W-40!
I'm MUCH more educated now, needless to say.
IIRC, my nieces 84 Civic owners manual stated not to use 5w30 above freezing. Her new Civic is 5W-20? year around. I'm still enough "old school", that if I lived in a place like Phoenix, I'd probably use 10W-30 during the summer.
How times have changed!
Hey Bill, I respect your opinion. I do not know you personally so I am not sure of your engineering and internal combustion engine background. It is very possible you have far superior credentials to mine. Going with the manufacturers stated oil viscosity and quality requirements is always a safe bet.
So, with that out of the way, I do know that in my situation of hard use here in the Florida summer, the use of M1 15W-50 has been an overall benefit. As I mentioned before, I am particularly hard on pumps and generators. I tend to purchase the best equipment I know how to. In recent years, Kawasaki has really proven to be a good choice. Honda makes some very good products, but surprisingly, 2 of my Honda pumps have not held up well with the required Honda 10-30 oil. A simple switch to M1 15W-50 solved the problem with the warranty replacement engines. Once again, my equipment sees a hard life, so regular oil changes are always performed.
Sometimes the school of hard knocks is a good teacher indeed.
I currently work with the customer review board on Gulfstream GV and G550 aircraft. One thing I learned early on is the manufacturer can do all the testing it wants. Field experience often shows up unforeseen problems. So when I make an aircraft comparison, I do know the loads, temperatures and stresses involved. To say that air cooled aircraft piston engines turning at 2400 to 2700RPM and 3300RPM in some helicopters is not a valid comparison would seem OK on the surface. However, a detailed analysis of modern lawn equipment shows similar BMEP, bearing loads, cylinder head and oil temperatures and overall lifespan. It might be a good idea to see what has been proven to work in the past.
Chris
So, with that out of the way, I do know that in my situation of hard use here in the Florida summer, the use of M1 15W-50 has been an overall benefit. As I mentioned before, I am particularly hard on pumps and generators. I tend to purchase the best equipment I know how to. In recent years, Kawasaki has really proven to be a good choice. Honda makes some very good products, but surprisingly, 2 of my Honda pumps have not held up well with the required Honda 10-30 oil. A simple switch to M1 15W-50 solved the problem with the warranty replacement engines. Once again, my equipment sees a hard life, so regular oil changes are always performed.
Sometimes the school of hard knocks is a good teacher indeed.
I currently work with the customer review board on Gulfstream GV and G550 aircraft. One thing I learned early on is the manufacturer can do all the testing it wants. Field experience often shows up unforeseen problems. So when I make an aircraft comparison, I do know the loads, temperatures and stresses involved. To say that air cooled aircraft piston engines turning at 2400 to 2700RPM and 3300RPM in some helicopters is not a valid comparison would seem OK on the surface. However, a detailed analysis of modern lawn equipment shows similar BMEP, bearing loads, cylinder head and oil temperatures and overall lifespan. It might be a good idea to see what has been proven to work in the past.
Chris
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