No. It still has to be a GFCI protected outlet because someone might unplug the washer and use the outlet for something else.
Symptoms of bad breaker. Lost all loads
- Thread starter gathermewool
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gathermewool
Site Donor 2025
Probably a good idea for fault detection, not just human safety. If the GFCI is tripping constantly, something likely needs to be fixed.
gathermewool
Site Donor 2025
I replaced the breaker today and NO joy. They didn’t have any GFCI, which were 8X more expensive anyway, and I wanted to find out if the breaker was the issue as quickly as possible, so I stuck with the regular 20A breaker. I MIGHT be able to trace out the issue, but I do not have the ability to retire the circuit, if necessary...
The only thing I can do is check each of the four receptacles for damage or disconnection, which I’ll be doing tomorrow or Sunday. I also think it’s a safe bet to assume these receptacles are daisy-chained, based on the symptoms.
I’ve already got a call into my electrician to see when they can come out to take a look.
Anyone wanna start a betting pool on how much this is going to cost (if a rewire is required from the breaker box downstairs, up one level (almost directly above, actually)
/
Oh, as an aside: when I called an electrician we’ve used in the past with good results the receptionist guffawed when, after I introduced myself, I asked, “what time do you guys close, by the way?” Her response was a curt, “430...” I called at 415. She calmed down when I politely continued that this wasn’t an emergency and that I was only wondering if it was too late to make an appointment for some time in the future.
My take (unsaid, of course): why sound surprised when someone calls an electrician‘s office with a problem at ANY time? Either pick up the phone and be polite the entire time or don’t pick up the phone. Right?
Luckily, we’ve used these guys before to retire a 60’s condo from Al to Cu wiring. Yea, that sucked, but they did an excellent job. I don’t think I need to send out for quotes fro this type of job.
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Not that any of you care, but this has been a rough year for me. I was really hoping this would be the year things turned around and everything besides the essentials would remain on the quiet side until I can get some debt paid off and my nest egg replenished (should take six months, if I can get my work routine back at work). I’m not saying this, the leaky chimney repair ($2700 late spring start), or Forester battery drain issue are major issues, but I’d prefer this place and my things not nickel and dime me to death, of all times.
Sorry for the too-long post. It’s been a frustrating/tough week for me. Today is better than yesterday and tomorrow should be better than today, I hope.
The only thing I can do is check each of the four receptacles for damage or disconnection, which I’ll be doing tomorrow or Sunday. I also think it’s a safe bet to assume these receptacles are daisy-chained, based on the symptoms.
I’ve already got a call into my electrician to see when they can come out to take a look.
Anyone wanna start a betting pool on how much this is going to cost (if a rewire is required from the breaker box downstairs, up one level (almost directly above, actually)
/
Oh, as an aside: when I called an electrician we’ve used in the past with good results the receptionist guffawed when, after I introduced myself, I asked, “what time do you guys close, by the way?” Her response was a curt, “430...” I called at 415. She calmed down when I politely continued that this wasn’t an emergency and that I was only wondering if it was too late to make an appointment for some time in the future.
My take (unsaid, of course): why sound surprised when someone calls an electrician‘s office with a problem at ANY time? Either pick up the phone and be polite the entire time or don’t pick up the phone. Right?
Luckily, we’ve used these guys before to retire a 60’s condo from Al to Cu wiring. Yea, that sucked, but they did an excellent job. I don’t think I need to send out for quotes fro this type of job.
//
Not that any of you care, but this has been a rough year for me. I was really hoping this would be the year things turned around and everything besides the essentials would remain on the quiet side until I can get some debt paid off and my nest egg replenished (should take six months, if I can get my work routine back at work). I’m not saying this, the leaky chimney repair ($2700 late spring start), or Forester battery drain issue are major issues, but I’d prefer this place and my things not nickel and dime me to death, of all times.
Sorry for the too-long post. It’s been a frustrating/tough week for me. Today is better than yesterday and tomorrow should be better than today, I hope.
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I had another thought... at our first home we lost an outlet but couldn’t explain why. Outlet itself was fine when tested on another circuit, and nothing else was dead... turns out the cable feeding that outlet had shorted out and burned a hole into itself in the middle of it up in the attic, thank god it didn’t start a fire.
It's entirely normal to daisy-chain outlets. From your experience, are outlets and switches wired somewhat logically (no matter how hard someone tries, it doesn't always happen) or randomly ? Are there other outlets not working that you simply haven't tried yet ? I can't recall at this point, but if I'm not mistaken, you indicated your microwave outlet is not on it's own circuit. I think if your house was built today, it should be but at the time yours was built, this may not have been the case (and it's fine like that).
I used a current transformer coil and a digital storage oscilloscope to look at the surge current when a microwave kicks on. For the first couple of cycles it is unbelievably high. It was a little over 100 Amps. There is a big capacitor that the microwave charges up very quickly for the first couple of cycles. That very brief very big rush of current is very hard on all the parts of the electric circuit that connects to a microwave. It can destroy the connection in the fuse box that the breaker mounts to. And it is hard on the wall plug. I am not surprised to see your post about a breaker on a microwave circuit going bad. And abusing it with a toaster and a refrigerator on the same circuit is just hammering it even harder.
OP, you really should run 2 new separate circuits, one for the toaster, and one for the fridge. The compressor of a fridge has a big initial power draw also. And a toaster just draws a lot of power all the time it is on.
It would be smart to use at least 12 Gauge wire and 20 Amp breakers for all three of those circuits. And also 20 Amp rated sockets, even if you can only find them in a single. If you had to buy only one 20 amp single socket it should be for the microwave. The huge inrush current when it first turns on every time is extremely hard on anything in the circuit feeding it.
There is no way a toaster should be on the same circuit as a fridge. And a microwave and a toaster on the same circuit is even worse. All 3 on the same circuit is even worse than that.
OP, you really should run 2 new separate circuits, one for the toaster, and one for the fridge. The compressor of a fridge has a big initial power draw also. And a toaster just draws a lot of power all the time it is on.
It would be smart to use at least 12 Gauge wire and 20 Amp breakers for all three of those circuits. And also 20 Amp rated sockets, even if you can only find them in a single. If you had to buy only one 20 amp single socket it should be for the microwave. The huge inrush current when it first turns on every time is extremely hard on anything in the circuit feeding it.
There is no way a toaster should be on the same circuit as a fridge. And a microwave and a toaster on the same circuit is even worse. All 3 on the same circuit is even worse than that.
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I thought you had tested the breaker and found it was good. Anyway you have a new one in there now so the problem is certainly elsewhere.
You need to find all the outlets in the chain. Turn the breaker off and check every outlet in the house to identify which are dead (hopefully they are all in the kitchen, but you never know.) Once located, stab-in outlets are automatically condemned for replacement without any further diagnosis.
After replacing the outlets, turn the breaker back on and see if problem still exists.
If you identify multiple heavy loads on this one circuit, certainly some new work such as an additional circuit should be considered.
You need to find all the outlets in the chain. Turn the breaker off and check every outlet in the house to identify which are dead (hopefully they are all in the kitchen, but you never know.) Once located, stab-in outlets are automatically condemned for replacement without any further diagnosis.
After replacing the outlets, turn the breaker back on and see if problem still exists.
If you identify multiple heavy loads on this one circuit, certainly some new work such as an additional circuit should be considered.
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Check the blade in the box that the breaker of the bad circuit mounts to for its electric power feed. The huge draw of a microwave is enough to burn that blade if the connection is not perfect, or in your case maybe if you add the loads of a toaster, and a fridge running and then hammer it with the surge current of the microwave trying to start.
gathermewool
Site Donor 2025
I agree that I’ve experienced many daisy-chained outlets. I guess I was just staying the obvious, that the fault lies between the first outlet and the breaker.
The outlets and switches are almost all logically laid out. There are a couple of switches that operate one of two outlets on a receptacle, but they’re taped/labeled so we don’t touch them since, for instance, out living room layout is 100% different than theirs (entertainment center, cable input, etc) Only one is odd in that the fan switch for the bathroom is right by the sink...in the bathroom.
If I have to pay to have the whole thing rewired I might as well have them run three separate lines, right? One for the fridge, one for the microwave and one for the two others, one of which is the toaster and the other is misc, mostly used for our shredder. I’ve got just enough space in the main breaker box.
@JimPghPA: I’ll inquire about running three diff paths and also the 12ga wiring. I can’t tell the diff between 12 and 14 ga by eye, but it looks like 12ga if I had to guess.
I wish I had an Oscope! I never knew how much initial draw a microwave would have. I mean, you always hear about the massive caps in ‘em. I figured they’d be similar to an AC compressor, but I guess not!
The breaker that came out and the blade look unblemished.
I did test the breaker. I had time limitations today and HD was out of GFCI. I was already there and figured it was worth trying a mew breaker for $8.
I thought I had figured out all of the chain outlets. They seem logical. Even though it’s unlikely I’ll check a few in the surrounding area while to be sure.
As a part of this repair all back-stabbed receptacles will be replaced. I might get lucky in my search tomorrow or Sunday and find the first receptacle damaged.
in the mean time, the breaker will NOT be shut until some solution is found. I don’t want to chance something smoldering in the wall somewhere. For all I know the POs did some weird splice and patched the wall up so I’d never know! I hope not.
Before I would of bought a new breaker, I would of swapped a good breaker of the same Amp rating from a good circuit in the box to the location feeding the problem circuit.
If the problem then transferred to the circuit that was good but now has the questionable breaker in it then the breaker is bad.
If the problem still was in the original circuit that now has a different known to be good breaker in it, then the problem is in the circuit somewhere else other than the breaker.
And swapping breakers take less time than running to a store to buy a breaker.
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( Or you could swap the wires of those two circuits where they connect to breakers, so the problem circuit is then connected to a breaker that was not having a problem ). Just chose a good circuit with a breaker that has the same Amp rating.
With swapping the two wires in the box to different breakers, if the problem circuit still has a problem with a different breaker that was known to be good now feeding it, then the problem is in the circuit.
If the previous OK circuit that now is connected to the questionable breaker now has a problem, then the questionable breaker is bad ( or the connection in the box to that breaker is bad ).
If the problem then transferred to the circuit that was good but now has the questionable breaker in it then the breaker is bad.
If the problem still was in the original circuit that now has a different known to be good breaker in it, then the problem is in the circuit somewhere else other than the breaker.
And swapping breakers take less time than running to a store to buy a breaker.
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( Or you could swap the wires of those two circuits where they connect to breakers, so the problem circuit is then connected to a breaker that was not having a problem ). Just chose a good circuit with a breaker that has the same Amp rating.
With swapping the two wires in the box to different breakers, if the problem circuit still has a problem with a different breaker that was known to be good now feeding it, then the problem is in the circuit.
If the previous OK circuit that now is connected to the questionable breaker now has a problem, then the questionable breaker is bad ( or the connection in the box to that breaker is bad ).
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BTW, a plain oscilloscope will not show you the very brief inrush current. I used a current transformer ( you feed the wire you want to monitor through it, it is a big coil of wire with a rating of the current it produces with respect to the current of the wire you pass through it, and you have to connect its output to a resistor chosen to convert the current to a voltage of the level you can see with the scope ) and you need a storage oscilloscope that captures a brief signal and continues to display it, a plain oscilloscope will not display the signal long enough for you to see it.
Is the microwave outlet the 1st in the circuit off of the breaker box ?
Is this a sub panel fed by another 240v breaker? I recently had this happen. Some circuits were dead, some on, but when I turned a 240v wall heater on, the wall heater switch turned all the dead circuits on. The wall heater knob turned on unrelated light circuits, and the garbage disposer, etc. It was like the twilight zone.
It took awhile but I found a dead half of the 240v breaker feeding the subpanel. Since the wall heater has both hots, the one live side was energizing the dead side of the bus bar when the switch was turned on. The wall heater was back feeding the dead bus bar. Simple fix and I can’t say what a relief it was to have found it myself. The bad breaker stayed in the on position, the fail was inside of it. It rattled when I took it off and shook it. No continuity on the bad side of the two pole breaker. New 240v breaker that feeds the subpanel made it all work again.
I think this is one reason why two pole breakers have a connecting piece that makes it impossible to turn off only one hot leg.
It took awhile but I found a dead half of the 240v breaker feeding the subpanel. Since the wall heater has both hots, the one live side was energizing the dead side of the bus bar when the switch was turned on. The wall heater was back feeding the dead bus bar. Simple fix and I can’t say what a relief it was to have found it myself. The bad breaker stayed in the on position, the fail was inside of it. It rattled when I took it off and shook it. No continuity on the bad side of the two pole breaker. New 240v breaker that feeds the subpanel made it all work again.
I think this is one reason why two pole breakers have a connecting piece that makes it impossible to turn off only one hot leg.
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If they all do not work, the wire between the first outlet and the breaker is my thought as well.
I had this problem this week except it was towards the end of the circuit and only 3 outlets didn’t work. Found the last working outlet and the issue was right after that.
Using a volt meter is quickest and most sure way of checking a questionable breaker in the panel. If the breaker is good, most likely problem is a bad wire nutted connection at an outlet box location where there is a daisy chained connection feeding other outlets.
If a connection fails at the inlet side of the first outlet, that outlet and all the others will be dead. This is a likely place to fail since the current is highest there.
Someone made a good point to check that the circuit's white wire is secure on the neutral bus in the breaker box. Follow the black wire from the breaker to where it joins the romex cable leaving the box. Then follow that cable's white wire to the neutral bus.
Failure of the wires mid-span inside a wall is extremely rare especially if weaker points like stab-in receptacles are present.
Someone made a good point to check that the circuit's white wire is secure on the neutral bus in the breaker box. Follow the black wire from the breaker to where it joins the romex cable leaving the box. Then follow that cable's white wire to the neutral bus.
Failure of the wires mid-span inside a wall is extremely rare especially if weaker points like stab-in receptacles are present.
gathermewool
Site Donor 2025
Unfortunately, I thought of that after I bought the new breaker. Remember, I WAS there to buy a new GFCI breaker, which they were out of, and I had zero time to run around any longer. To say my mind was preoccupied with other things would be a massive understatement. I COULD return the new breaker, but I’m not that kind of guy.
I’m not sure. I plan to pull off all of the covers and take a look tomorrow to see if any have pigtails. The only one I pulled off was what I presume is the end of the line, since it only had three leads coming in. It’s also at the end of the counter and the farthest receptacle not working.
Nope, this is the main panel. The main panel feeds two sub-panels, so I’ll remember what you said in case something goes awry in the future with either of those panels. You’re a smart man to have figured that out!
The first one I’ll look at tomorrow is the fridge outlet, which is directly above the main breaker panel. I’ll have to check the neutral bus. All I’ve messed with so far is the one breaker wire and it was on their TIGHT!
Thanks again for all of the insight, help and patience. I’ll hopefully have more information tomorrow. Hopefully a simple disconnection at the first receptacle!
gathermewool
Site Donor 2025
Well, I pulled the receptacle out behind the fridge and it’s definitely the culprit and first in the daisy-chain. All I did after pulling the unit out some (it was really tight!) was have my wife turn on the breaker and when I measured all points I got 120VAC.
No back-stabbing for this one, either!
I wiggled the receptacle and it’s still good; solid 120VAC. One of the four terminals’ screws was a LITTLE bit loose and the others were only snug, but the leads were fully inserted into the terminals.
The whole chain works. Opchecked the microwave and toaster. Ill leave the fridge on the extension cord for now to a known good socket.
Thoughts? Besides needing to replace this receptacle sooner than later, preferably with a GFCI, if one can fit.
I don’t have the extra cash to rewire each load, but I’ll add it to the list.
No back-stabbing for this one, either!
I wiggled the receptacle and it’s still good; solid 120VAC. One of the four terminals’ screws was a LITTLE bit loose and the others were only snug, but the leads were fully inserted into the terminals.
The whole chain works. Opchecked the microwave and toaster. Ill leave the fridge on the extension cord for now to a known good socket.
Thoughts? Besides needing to replace this receptacle sooner than later, preferably with a GFCI, if one can fit.
I don’t have the extra cash to rewire each load, but I’ll add it to the list.
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