Switching From Coal To Batteries At Power Plant In Maryland

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Using batteries to make solar and wind useable to charge Ev’s is useful but expensive. Using batteries to make use of idled natural gas power plants is very wasteful. They might as well just make more natural gas plants and run them during the day. The time shifting guys might make a few bucks but only until enough of them do it until it ruins the cheap night prices. For now the best bet is to let the EV’s charge up at night on Natural Gas plants which is excacty what California is doing. The plants already exist but the Oil and Gas companies will have to get back to fracking more gas wells. If that disturbs voters, then build nuclear plants. In the end, the consumers pay for everything.

Does anyone remember Calpine? They tried to capitalize on cheap natural gas and built a large number of natural gas plants. Then the price of natural gas went through the roof and they went bankrupt. The same thing could happen to companies building battery facilities to try take advantage of cheap night power.
 
Are you assuming these batteries, EVs, etc are not doing anything with the power they "used up"?

One is to replace other fuel (gasoline, which is still more expensive) in transportation, the other is to shift the load, averaging out the high and low pricing. If you consider that bad I don't know what is good.

What they did is good, just expensive.

Batteries impose a round-trip cost on the process, so I don't expect consumers are going to benefit by large scale commercial storage. It's a way to facilitate increased levels of VRE where otherwise, the market wouldn't allow it to make sense because they eat each other's lunch. A developer can siphon off some of their output during low demand/low value periods and sell it into the market when demand spikes and prices are high.

Hornsdale has made a ton of money for its developer by doing FCAS and arbitrage even though its actual output is quite low. As you note, in a market, a storage medium has the ability to buy cheap and sell high, even if its overall contribution is minimal and the real value (which it is also compensated for) is improving stability with a high penetration of wind/solar.

IIRC, in the case of Hornsdale, the developer also owns the adjacent wind farm, so they are making money from both sides of this.

Hornsdale has ultimately cost (AUD) $172 million for 150MW/194MWh. That's $1.15 million per MW, roughly the same price as an average onshore wind turbine. The cycle limit of course is where the issue arises. The unit spends significant time charging and its discharge periods are short due to its capacity.

The long-term (not FCAS) storage side of the battery can discharge 30MW for 3 hours (they have the battery operation partitioned) and it does exactly what we just discussed, it buys power when it is cheap and sells it back to the grid when demand is high, making the developer money.

If we assume that it is able to cycle this side of the battery at full nameplate for three hours every day (90,000kWh), that's 32,850,000kWh/year; 32.8GWh. Assuming a 10 year lifespan, to pay off half of our storage medium (assuming the other half is paid off by FCAS) we'd need to receive an average per kWh rate of $0.26. However, we have to consider the price it buys the power it charges for on top of that. So, assuming it buys power at $0.04 for example, it would need to then sell it at $0.30/kWh.

Then we have the other half of the battery, which can discharge up to 104MWh for less than an hour at 110MW to improve stability. Assuming a 45 minute discharge cycle per 24hrs, that's 82.5MWh per day, 30,112,000kWh/year. It faces the same problem, it needs to buy power when demand is low in order to be able to discharge during periods of instability, assuming it doesn't have the luxury of buying at $0.04/kWh, let's bump that up to $0.06/kWh. Since we aren't full cycling and our annual output is lower, our base rate in this role is $0.29/kWh. Adjusted to include charging, it is $0.35/kWh.

So the overall operating rate for the battery using the above scenario is ~$0.32/kWh in order to pay for itself within a 10 year lifespan or amortization period. That's certainly no deal for the ratepayer. So, is that cheaper than a gas plant? It will depend on the state of the market. Given the very short duration of storage provided by the battery, gas will still be necessary for longer low VRE output periods. And it will be able to command an even higher price once storage is depleted.

As I noted above, what I expect we'll see is more paired storage owned by the same developer that has the VRE resources. They can siphon off their own output when market price is in the toilet, demand is low and output is high, and then sell from their storage when demand spikes and the price goes up. They are basically just taking advantage of the same position the gas plant operators are in, which allows them to install more VRE capacity than would otherwise be profitable.
 
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So the overall operating rate for the battery using the above scenario is ~$0.32/kWh in order to pay for itself within a 10 year lifespan or amortization period. That's certainly no deal for the ratepayer. So, is that cheaper than a gas plant? It will depend on the state of the market. Given the very short duration of storage provided by the battery, gas will still be necessary for longer low VRE output periods. And it will be able to command an even higher price once storage is depleted.
SVCE is currently having about / above that price delta for EV rate between the peak and night time charging.
 
Using batteries to make solar and wind useable to charge Ev’s is useful but expensive. Using batteries to make use of idled natural gas power plants is very wasteful. They might as well just make more natural gas plants and run them during the day. The time shifting guys might make a few bucks but only until enough of them do it until it ruins the cheap night prices. For now the best bet is to let the EV’s charge up at night on Natural Gas plants which is excacty what California is doing. The plants already exist but the Oil and Gas companies will have to get back to fracking more gas wells. If that disturbs voters, then build nuclear plants. In the end, the consumers pay for everything.

Does anyone remember Calpine? They tried to capitalize on cheap natural gas and built a large number of natural gas plants. Then the price of natural gas went through the roof and they went bankrupt. The same thing could happen to companies building battery facilities to try take advantage of cheap night power.
Without going political, here's my though: most Californians here are realistic that we are not going to get every kwh from solar and wind, most also understand that letting big oil and gas have too much influence we will go back to the days of $120/barrel. Most care about local emission but if someone in Texas was fracking to reduce their local emission, they would be happy to pay Texans to take their emission burden off.

People understand nuke is clean and MOSTLY safe, but we have idiots in every industry and Mr Murphy taught us we always have something that happens (not just nuke, refineries here caught fire once every several years too), and we just witnessed Fukushima, and we had a few nuke shut down due to them being on a fault line they found (I think it was Mount Diablo that was shut down).

The reality is there isn't one perfect solution and they all have problems, and as you know everyone gangster until they put a nuke or refinery in your backyard and then you go all NIMBY. We know what in theory should be cheaper isn't always, because of monopoly or other cartels / OPEC / etc.
 
Without going political, here's my though: most Californians here are realistic that we are not going to get every kwh from solar and wind, most also understand that letting big oil and gas have too much influence we will go back to the days of $120/barrel. Most care about local emission but if someone in Texas was fracking to reduce their local emission, they would be happy to pay Texans to take their emission burden off.

People understand nuke is clean and MOSTLY safe, but we have idiots in every industry and Mr Murphy taught us we always have something that happens (not just nuke, refineries here caught fire once every several years too), and we just witnessed Fukushima, and we had a few nuke shut down due to them being on a fault line they found (I think it was Mount Diablo that was shut down).

The reality is there isn't one perfect solution and they all have problems, and as you know everyone gangster until they put a nuke or refinery in your backyard and then you go all NIMBY. We know what in theory should be cheaper isn't always, because of monopoly or other cartels / OPEC / etc.

If you are thinking of Diablo Canyon, it is still operating. It is slated to be shutdown because it uses once-through cooling water, which the state now opposes, but they've given a free pass/exemption for gas plants to do the same thing, so.....
 
How would you like being stuck in a snow drift and no one around with an electric car? Or stuck in a 3-4 hour rush hour traffic jam with the temp in the mid 90fs?
 
How would you like being stuck in a snow drift and no one around with an electric car? Or stuck in a 3-4 hour rush hour traffic jam with the temp in the mid 90fs?
Don’t have to worry about CO poisoning while sitting in the nice warm cabin of an electric car while waiting for a tow truck, nor do you have to get out and make sure there isn’t snow building up around the tail pipe(s).
 
Don’t have to worry about CO poisoning while sitting in the nice warm cabin of an electric car while waiting for a tow truck, nor do you have to get out and make sure there isn’t snow building up around the tail pipe(s).
Agree with the other part but if you need a tow truck because you are out of fuel and charge, you would likely neither get CO poisoning or a nice warm cabin.
 
Hmmmm A battery as a storage container... all the energy, chemicals and metals to manufacture the battery. Conversion losses to store enrergy there then again to convert it back when you draw from it. OR pump the oily goo from the ground into a series of simple metal containers some with wheels to store, process, deliver and use the energy. The fantasy continues while someone else pays for it.
 
All the coal fired generation coming off line has not too well thought out. The utilities believe the cost of wind and solar is coming down to a point where they are planning providing service with that generation. Good luck with hat Hosteen.
 
Just in. Amazon has committed to purchase 400 MW of power from the Travers solar plant under construction in southern Alberta, Canada.It will be the largest solar plant on Canada. Being at over 50 degrees of latitude, the economics are nowhere near California’s efficiency. LA is at 34 degrees latitude. The plant is in a sunny area, that being Vulcan, Alberta. Live long and prosper. And yes, Spock has visited Vulcan.

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Just in. Amazon has committed to purchase 400 MW of power from the Travers solar plant under construction in southern Alberta, Canada.It will be the largest solar plant on Canada. Being at over 50 degrees of latitude, the economics are nowhere near California’s efficiency. LA is at 34 degrees latitude. The plant is in a sunny area, that being Vulcan, Alberta. Live long and prosper. And yes, Spock has visited Vulcan.

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Depends on a few things:

1) Did solar output match data center demands? If so it is great if it is a good price
2) Are they near the region AWS wants to power? or are they doing some funny grid trade to reduce their cost elsewhere in another region?
3) Are they reliable with a direct line? I know some data center are next to power plant so they can bypass the grid for better reliability and efficiency.
 
Just in. Amazon has committed to purchase 400 MW of power from the Travers solar plant under construction in southern Alberta, Canada.It will be the largest solar plant on Canada. Being at over 50 degrees of latitude, the economics are nowhere near California’s efficiency. LA is at 34 degrees latitude. The plant is in a sunny area, that being Vulcan, Alberta. Live long and prosper. And yes, Spock has visited Vulcan.

View attachment 61320

Sweet Jesus, 1,902 hectares, that's 4,700 acres!!

So, assuming a 16% capacity factor, that 400MW will produce 560,640MWh/year.

To pay for itself ($500 million) in 10 years it will need to receive ~$0.09/kWh. That's no profit or anything, doesn't cover OPEX (cleaning, mowing...etc). Of course that price goes down if the payoff period gets pushed out.

In reality it displaces about 64MW of coal, but it's some smooth marketing! And the optics of almost 5,000 acres of solar panels, well, the perception of how much power that generates? You can't put a price on that.
 
Hmmmm A battery as a storage container... all the energy, chemicals and metals to manufacture the battery. Conversion losses to store enrergy there then again to convert it back when you draw from it. OR pump the oily goo from the ground into a series of simple metal containers some with wheels to store, process, deliver and use the energy. The fantasy continues while someone else pays for it.
BMW is using all the batteries pulled from cars as stationary battery storage. Good way to further the life span of materials.
 
Depends on a few things:

1) Did solar output match data center demands? If so it is great if it is a good price
2) Are they near the region AWS wants to power? or are they doing some funny grid trade to reduce their cost elsewhere in another region?
3) Are they reliable with a direct line? I know some data center are next to power plant so they can bypass the grid for better reliability and efficiency.
The plant is isolated in barren scrub land far from Amazon’s physical facilities so I suspect it feeds into the grid and Amazon just takes delivery off the grid, paying the agreed price plus delivery charges from the utility.
 
Sweet Jesus, 1,902 hectares, that's 4,700 acres!!

So, assuming a 16% capacity factor, that 400MW will produce 560,640MWh/year.

To pay for itself ($500 million) in 10 years it will need to receive ~$0.09/kWh. That's no profit or anything, doesn't cover OPEX (cleaning, mowing...etc). Of course that price goes down if the payoff period gets pushed out.

In reality it displaces about 64MW of coal, but it's some smooth marketing! And the optics of almost 5,000 acres of solar panels, well, the perception of how much power that generates? You can't put a price on that.
I noticed they claim a 35 year life. Are the panel manufacturers guaranteeing 35 years now? The $ 0.09 will not be difficult in Alberta and probably room for more of a premium.
 
I noticed they claim a 35 year life. Are the panel manufacturers guaranteeing 35 years now? The $ 0.09 will not be difficult in Alberta and probably room for more of a premium.

Oh yes, I expect they will see more than that.

35 year life sounds pretty hard on the fluff. Did you see the recent solar panel degradation article I posted? 20 years is usually what they are designed for/guaranteed for, with an "acceptable" rate in reduction in output over that period. Seems commercial installs have been declining at %0.88/year, so after 20 years that 17.6% off that 400MW, which puts us at 330 nameplate and drops annual output by 100,000MWh.
 
What I want to know is where are they going to get the electricity to charge the batteries until the solar farms are built? Also, what are they going to do on rainy days, cloudy days, etc.? Sounds almost too good to be true.
Clearly they are going to use this as a load leveler. I.E.- Charge the batteries at night and discharge during the day.
 
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