Surround System - Lessons I Should Have Learned

[TWG1572]

So, after getting out of college about 10 years ago I felt flush with money and decided to go about building a surround system from the ground up. I didn't, and still don't, know much about sound systems other than being able to tell what sounds good to me and what doesn't. Most of what I read on hear about crossover, etc, is pretty much greek.

So, I went mainly off reviews and ended up with a Harmon Kardon 240AVR. I poked around and picked up an infinity Primus center and tower speakers up from the discount room of a large local reseller here. I would assume they either came from the floor, or returns. I rounded it out with infinity 160 speakers for the sides.

I got it all together, used the microphone that came with the reciever to do the automatic balance, and fired it up. I was quite unhappy with it's performance, especially when watching TV/DVDs - I had a hard time hearing the dialogue without cranking it waaay up. Then the surround was just overpowering in any action scene. I played with different surround settings on the reciever, but no signifigant improvement. There were so many different adjustments I just got overwhelmed I guess.

Fast forward a year or four, sound quality was still bad and I had toddlers running around hanging on the speakers - I had visions of one falling on one of my kids. I threw my hands up in the air and sold it all.

So, I'm past that age of kids now and getting tired of the internal speakers on my Sony LCD. (But the upside to the internal speakers is that i can actually hear dialogue.) I'm getting the urge to try and rebuild a better sound system, expecially since our new house is already wired for surround. But I'm scared to try again, given my last experience.

I'm not ready to pull the trigger yet, but curious if there any primers out there on how to put a system together, what to look for, etc. I don't have a clue what I did wrong the first time around, but don't want to repeat it again.

I don't know if I've provided enough information to be of use, but any thoughts?

 

[dparm]

In my experience the center channel always needs to be bumped up a few dB, even if the center channel is a very good one and is aimed correctly. Audyssey has even said this on the AVSforums. It comes down to personal preference at times.

One problem is that the center channel is often too low. Try propping the front edge of it up an inch or two and see if that helps.

I used to install and sell the stuff as a hobby so I've had some of those same problems as you.

 

[TWG1572]

That's an interesting point on aiming. My center channel speaker was 2-3 feet off the ground, with the TV above it. It was big, boxy and square, so there really wasn't a good spot for it. Maybe the height was an issue?

 

[Quattro Pete]

As dparm noted, the center needs to be pointing at your ears. If it is not at ear level (when sitting in your favorite position) then you need to angle it up/down accordingly. In addition, room acoustics are also very important. The center cannot be hidden inside a shelf of some TV cabinet as you will get reflections that may affect its sound. Same goes for reflections off the back wall - if you have an empty wall behind you, and the center is firing right at that wall, then you may be running into some sound wave cancellation issues that can further make the dialogues hard to hear.

The most important aspect of it is the calibration. Some of these built in calibration tools can be quite screwy. If all else fails, just buy a standard SPL (sound pressure level) meter from RadioShack and do your own channel calibration with a dedicated A/V disc (such as Avia). If this is overwhelming for you, then ask a friend that knows this stuff to help you or pay someone to do it right.

Also, for proper movie watching experience (sound effects), a dedicated subwoofer is typically recommended, even if your main speakers are fairly large.

 

[SteveSRT8]

After having spent too much across the last 45 years as an audiophile I would recommend a packaged setup designed to work together.

I have had (almost) one of everything, and trying to put it all together and getting it set up correctly was nearly impossible. Plus you will end up with TONS of gear that simply makes things complicated. These days the sound can be VERY robust with surprisingly small speakers and almost no equipment in racks getting hot.

 

[Sillicon]

I have a Yamaha receiver that I got on boxing day this year for $350 off (spent $250 on the reciever) or something like that. This receiver replaced a Panasonic SA-XR50 because I wanted HDMI switching. I have the Yamaha paired with an older KLH 5.1 speaker package that I picked up for $150 at a liquidation store and used to run with the Panasonic. I am VERY happy with the sound for TV/DVD/Blu-ray. Do I miss some things in the sound track? Probably. Do I know any different? Nope.

I have the center channel set up above the TV on a shelf, but just barely. The TV stand/cupboard is fairly low and I only have a 40" TV so it isn't very high.

I can take a picture when I get home if you want.

 

[apwillard1986]

I agree with this. A system composed of top shelf components poorly matched and/or tuned will always sound awful. I have had surprisingly good results from high quality boxed systems. In fact, many of our friends that have invested in component systems have commented on how nice our home audio is. I have learned that often cheaper (not cheap just cheaper) components that work really well together produce a result far greater than the sum of their parts.

 

[Rodraid]

Everyone is correct about the center channel being the issue if you can't hear dialog. You can adjust the center channel level in most AVRs so play with it until it is right for you.

If you want to have great surround sound don't start with speakers or AVRs. Start with the room you are going to put those in. The room will play the largest part in how well your system sounds. I have two surround sounds systems. The one in my living room cost more than twice the system in my bedroom but the living room isn't designed for a surround system. The system in the bedroom sounds 10x better at less than half the cost. I just spent quite a bit buying the TV I wanted for the bedroom because if I am going to watch a movie where sound is a big part I will watch it in the bedroom.

Rod

 

[fsdork]

While I don't completely disagree with the recommendations for a boxed system, I might recommend a slight modification. Look for a good 5-speaker satellite package, and add on a subwoofer, Blu-Ray player, and receiver. This way you don't have to worry about the matching of the speakers, but you also don't end up with a package of proprietary components. If one of the electronic components of a boxed system goes, the whole package is garbage due to the fact that the speaker plugs, etc. are proprietary.

 

[97tbird]

slightly OT:

I've always been a 2.1 channel guy, for music AND movies...

My living room set up consists of:
Music Hall int. amp,
2 Onix reference-1 stand-mounted monitors (2-way),
Onix X-sub, which is a very musical sub.
Sources are an old NAD cd changer connected to a decent external DAC,
Parasound z-Tuner (a great little tuner)
Panasonic blu ray player for movies...
(and Samsung 40" LCD TV)

For my needs it's a gem of a system for music, and can slam with movies too when needed.

SO,
Now that we have a house with an upstairs bonus room, perfect for a HT/man cave, I've been tempted by thoughts of a surround system/5.1 system/HT whatever BUT the complexities of setting it up that I read everywhere and the difficulties keep me shy of actually implementing it. I guess I am a position where I can let a professional service set it all up, etc...but then I think I love audio stuff, i can do it myself, then again, I don't want to go through troubleshooting, getting frustrated etc etc...

I need some encouragement, as I've always been Audio >>> Video/HT type of person...

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: 97tbird
but then I think I love audio stuff, i can do it myself, then again, I don't want to go through troubleshooting, getting frustrated etc etc...

It's really not that difficult. If you can follow directions, you can easily do it. The most difficult aspect of it is soundproofing the room if you want to get good sound. Something that I wasn't able to do properly in our house either, partly because my soundproofing ideas did not gain proper decor approval from my SO.

 

[dparm]

Pete, the problem with using an SPL meter is you will not achieve "reference level". That's what Audyssey is doing.

My advice has always been to run Audyssey (with the proper settings) and then watch a few scenes from your favorite movies. See how it sounds. Adjust the levels (ONLY the levels) accordingly.

Audyssey can account for standing reflections and null zones for the most part. There are some good calculators out there if you Google a bit. I actually used one to figure out some weird acoustic problems in my parents' family room -- solution ended up being to move the TV one foot to the side to move it out of a null-zone for the 500Hz region, pretty much EXACTLY where a lot of speech sits.


Another issue I've seen with center channels is that there is a lot of vibration being transmitted into the cabinet/shelf holding it, which muddies up the sound. Use a MoPad or something similar to isolate it.

 

[dparm]

BTW if you're curious on my setup:

Onkyo TX-SR606
Polk RTi10 (f) Polk CSiA4 (c)
Polk RT/FX (s)
BIC Venturi VK12 (LFE)
All hooked up with Belden 5000 cable and banana plugs. I have some special isolation materials to help with my laminate/wood floors.

 

[SteveSRT8]

^^^wood floors were part of our problem!

The solution was ceiling mount!

Good luck to the OP. There's a bewildering amount of stuff to choose from...

 

[sleddriver]

Before you buy any loudspeakers, look up Madisound. You're very fortunate as they're in your town. Check out their website and take a trip over there.

Relative levels are very important to balanced sound. Sometimes the built-in calibrators with the mics work, sometimes not. I always use a separate mic. The mic needs to go where you sit and [preferably] held in place with a wand or stand.

Dialogue intelligibility is very important. If your levels are off, the center is set to the wrong type, it's not aimed properly, etc, all will cause problems. So will a poorly designed unit.

 

[dparm]

Good call, sleddriver.

OP: what are the speaker sizes & crossovers configured at in your AVR?

 

[Donald]

So down a notch or two how are the $200 - $300 sound bars for use with a TV & Bluray? Vizio and others sell them. Or Bose?

 

[SteveSRT8]

You'll hear a lot from folks about Bose.

If installed correctly they can sound very good.

But I'd stay away from their bargain basement stuff. Their V35 system will blow most others away in an average room if set up properly.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Here is my advice: find a 5-speaker set with the flattest response curve (hint: they don't have to be super expensive if you look hard; CR publishes independent measurements), make sure the set has a nice and solid center speaker (look for the rare 3-way ones), add good sub-woofer, and average to good receiver. Tinker some with speaker placement.

My system sounds about perfect and I spent about a grand for speakers/subwoofer/receiver about 10 years ago. Sometimes I want more trebles and surrounds, but human voices are about as good as I've ever heard.