Suggested testing modality for determining high wear at beginning of OCI

Gary Allan · Nov 5, 2004

Okay ...there is apparent statistical data that suggests that the first 1000 miles of an OCI show more wear. Several suggestions to the cause have been explored.

1. Residuals from the previous OCI are resuspended by newer and allegedly more potent oil. Very likely.

2. The oil, being new and more potent, actually causes this wear. I don't think so ..but

3. The first start with an empty filter. I don't think so ..but that's just me.

4. Because the filter is new ..it indeed doesn't fliter as well and therefore the wear in the first 1000 miles ..is going on all the time and is just not "trapped" in the filter. Maybe

5.

So ..does anyone want to suggest a "round robin" way of covering all the bases? That is, we'll eliminate the oil by doing back to back 1k OCI with new filters and new oil. Then go right to another 1k with just new oil ...then

Let see how we can complicate this here

Mickey_M · Nov 5, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by Gary Allan:
Okay ...there is apparent statistical data that suggests that the first 1000 miles of an OCI show more wear. Several suggestions to the cause have been explored.

1. Residuals from the previous OCI are resuspended by newer and allegedly more potent oil. Very likely.

The term is "seating".

For example, it was noticed in fleets using certain synthetics that when the formula was changed, after the next oil change there was a slight increase in oil consumption for a short period.

If you are trying to measure oil "A" against "B", you need a seating period.

For example, run "A", change to "B" and run for 2,000 miles, change the oil and filter using "B" and begin measuring.

Manufacturers can run "A" in one test rig and "B" in another one and make parallel comparisons without having to go through this.

427Z06 · Nov 5, 2004

Mostly what Mickey_M alluded to and partly due to 1.) you mentioned which might be related to oil conditioning that takes place according to scientific studies I've read. As far as a test procedure we can come up with, I'll apply a few of my brain cells latter when I haven't imbibed as much.

Patman · Nov 5, 2004

This is my theory. When you change your oil, there is usually one quart of dirty oil left behind. So if you sample the next batch early at 1k, the wear you're seeing is from that mix of dirty oil from the previous run. If you were to change the oil twice in a row though (so that almost all of the oil is now fresh at the beginning of the run), then sample it at 1000 miles, the wear would be lower than if you were to do it the normal way.

TallPaul · Nov 5, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by Gary Allan:
1. Residuals from the previous OCI are resuspended by newer and allegedly more potent oil. Very likely.

If this one were true then we could avoid it by changing our oil and filter every 500 miles. Hmmm, now to start glomming on all those 59-cent cheapo oil deals.

Actually, what #1 is saying is that the new oil is helping clean the engine. This stuff should harmlessly be trapped in the filter though. Are the wear numbers due to the resuspended stuff abrading the bearings or just indicating the presence of this stuff? I suggest its the latter.

Also #1 is very similar to Patmans theory of the residuals of the oil left behind. Either way, resuspending/cleaning or simply left over oil, you will show higher wear numbers, I would think.

So yeah, one 1000 mile OCI and then test the next change at 1000 and we should not see the higher wear numbers.

I wonder if this happens in an engine that is religiously treated and maintenance dosed with Auto Rx?

[ November 06, 2004, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: TallPaul ]

Ugly3 · Nov 5, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by Gary Allan:
Okay ...there is apparent statistical data that suggests that the first 1000 miles of an OCI show more wear. Several suggestions to the cause have been explored.

1. Residuals from the previous OCI are resuspended by newer and allegedly more potent oil. Very likely.

2. The oil, being new and more potent, actually causes this wear. I don't think so ..but

3. The first start with an empty filter. I don't think so ..but that's just me.

4. Because the filter is new ..it indeed doesn't fliter as well and therefore the wear in the first 1000 miles ..is going on all the time and is just not "trapped" in the filter. Maybe

5.

So ..does anyone want to suggest a "round robin" way of covering all the bases? That is, we'll eliminate the oil by doing back to back 1k OCI with new filters and new oil. Then go right to another 1k with just new oil ...then

Let see how we can complicate this here

Some comments on the 3MP Synthetic Oil Life Study.

1.) They did a 3,000 OCI "buffer" with the oil to be used in the next test. Therefore, the carrover should have been minimal.

4.) In the Mobil 1 portion of the test they changed the oil filter at 12,000 miles. The wear rates did not spike up (new filter syndrom) as we might have suspected. There was little change in the wear rates and the insoluables did not go down. Looked like the filter change had little impact.

Gary Allan · Nov 5, 2004

quote:

4.) In the Mobil 1 portion of the test they changed the oil filter at 12,000 miles. The wear rates did not spike up (new filter syndrom) as we might have suspected. There was little change in the wear rates and the insoluables did not go down. Looked like the filter change had little impact.

I had considered this ..but that was a new filter with old oil.

So if this was the case

quote:

4. Because the filter is new ..it indeed doesn't fliter as well and therefore the wear in the first 1000 miles ..is going on all the time and is just not "trapped" in the filter. Maybe

A new filter could become quite saturated, to the point of being a "good" trap, in a very short amount of time.

See how the plot thickens? You have a wrestler and a boxer in the ring. Is the wrestler boxing? We don't know what the wear metal "production" is. We merely know the wear metal "retention" in suspension.

I had assumed that Blackstone had filtered their samples to the particle level. This is not the case according to email dialog from them to other members. They filter to about 15 microns. Now I don't know enough about their chromatography to know if the larger particles disintegrate in the flame (I'm basing this on AA which is different than what they do ..but). So if your filter is saturated and traps more particles that don't end up in the sample

quote:

So if you sample the next batch early at 1k, the wear you're seeing is from that mix of dirty oil from the previous run.

Sure. I go with that. The data, however, shows higher wear metals then seen @3k ..where did the higher metals go in the following 2k??

My thoughts fall along this line of testing. 1k buffer OCI with the test oil and new filter.

New oil(the same) and filter (the same) run for 1k. Drained and sampled. No new filter. The previous sample should establish the baseline of the "old" 1k oil ..so any residuals that remains in the engine will be diluted by a factor of 1:5 (or at least some near fraction). Do NOT change the filter.

Run for 1k and sample. This should eliminate residuals and the filter saturation from the mix (or so I believe). The residuals will be indexed and the filter should have 1k of saturation to aid in filtration.

Anyone ..feel free to "flow chart" this in terms of "YES" or "No" branching to result in the total elimination of "escapes" in the test.

FYI- My Caravan will be the test subject ..and the OCI's will be short enough to be conducted in one season (hopefully) so we can eliminate environmental factors. The oil shouldn't matter ..but for FYI it will be a custom blend of 10w (10w-20) and 15w40 Pennzoil LL HDEO ..mixed to the same ratio and all from the same batch to eliminate any variance in chemistry. Filter will probably be Supertech of the $2.07 variety since all my engines use the FL1A size ..and I have plenty on hand.

[ November 06, 2004, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: Gary Allan ]

427Z06 · Nov 6, 2004

Sounds like a plan, Gary. But to do this so that we have some meaningful data, I would think you would need to add an accurate particle count analysis in addition to the Inductively Coupled Plasma Optical Emission Spectrometry that Blackstone uses for our typical UOAs. And at that point, I think we begin to enter the territory that someone like Terry roams around in on a daily basis. Maybe Terry would even agree to provide us with some guidance? On the other hand, the man has to earn a living and might not be so inclined to give away all his trade secrets for free.

Left to our own devices, I'd also want to send samples to at least two labs to spot any anomalies.

Gary Allan · Nov 6, 2004

Yeah ..it would be nice if Terry would come in a say yea or nea. If it's been done all before ...then he can say that too and save me some money.

But I'll miss all the fun ....

1sttruck · Nov 10, 2004

What kind of assumptions are being made ? Is wear actually being measured, such as reduction in material on a surface, or is one assuming that a measurable increase in a material suspended in oil is wear ? If fresh oil causes more wear than 'broken in' oil then a machine/engine run on a total/partial loss oil system will exhibit more wear than a typical closed system. An approximate method for a 'lossy' oil system would be oil changes every 500 to 100 miles.

There was a newspaper article a number of years back about a cab company in Chicago as I recall, that changed oil in all vehicles once a week. The owner changed the oil in his own cars once a week too. He claimed that is why he got so many miles out of his cars, which were much higher than what was common at the time.

Gary Allan · Nov 10, 2004

There are certain disputed assumptions due to some testing that indicates that during the first 1000 miles of an OCI ...wear metals are higher then @ 3000 miles.

Okay ..we can assume that they are residuals from the 3k OCI.

We'll do back to back 1k samples. There should be no residuals.

We can accept that they are some psuedo "ion exchange" ejecta from different oil chemistries that are fighting over supremacy. That is, switching to a moly oil (I'm shooting here) from a non=moly oil.

We won't switch oil ..but we'll still take a 1k sample.

Some have suggested it's the first start with the emtpy filter = not likely ..but who are we to say it's not??

We'll do the first test with a new filter ..empty.

Some have suggested that filters improve in trap ratio with age and that the new filter is the cause of the higher wear numbers early in the OCI.

We'll do the second 1k with the old filter.

But the real question is ....if there is higher wear numbers at any time during the OCI EXCEPT near the end ...where did those, at one time, suspended wear metals go? Is it because the oil has lost its ability to suspend them ...or has the filter trapped them? Are particles sinking out all the time?

I don't know....do you?

Any insight or suggestions to, as I said, block the escape of these particles (from being detected for cause) would be greatly appreciated.

olddognewtrks · Nov 11, 2004

What about the idea of residual metal "dust" in the new oil filter we always put on? Check page 3 of http://www.champlabs.com/ECOREBROCHURE.pdf
This would explain the extra initial metal.

OffOrWFO · Nov 11, 2004

quote:

What about the idea of residual metal "dust" in the new oil filter we always put on? Check page 3 of http://www.champlabs.com/ECOREBROCHURE.pdf
This would explain the extra initial metal.

After reading the link I thought that you might have figured it out.... Till I remembered the 3MP study. The filter was changed at 12k with almost no change in wear metals afterwards.

Gary Allan · Nov 11, 2004

Again ..that was a new filter with old oil. The media could have its "newness" overcome in a 1000 miles. If so ..we should see a see higher wear metals @ the first 1000 UOA ..and not the second since we'll not have a new filter. Or maybe ...1000 flush (new oil/filter) ..New oil/same filter ..then new oil/new filter. We should see a spike in the last UOA if the metal dust in the filter is the cause.

This should end this debate for everyone or at least many. I personally think it's #1 ..but some doubt that ..some doubt a bunch a stuff. How do we put this matter to rest for them so that if you ever hear some mention this again you can say, "Nope, a clown on BITOG did a xxxyyyzzz and proved, at least in this limited trial, that it's not zzzyyyxxx."???

Anyone good at Boolean? Maybe an equation with NAND and NOR gates

(visions of blocking pathways of signals A-NOT + B + AB NOT)

Ugly3 · Nov 17, 2004

The whole focus here is the first high collection of wear metals in the first 3,000 to 5,000 miles of a long term OCI.

Possibly the "culprit" is not the first part of the long OCI but the latter part of the OCI. Maybe there is something in the UOA analysis methodology that "masks" the wear rates after 5,000 miles.

Gary Allan · Nov 17, 2004

You may be correct. That's what I kinda wondered ..is the wear really going on all the time ..and the oil just not suspending the stuff ..or is the filter catching it

We will probably still have questions ..that probably someone has already answered ..but we just don't know it yet.

Anyway ..I'm finishing up an Auto-Rx (3rd app - semi long story). I'll be rinsing with the test oil in a couple of more weeks

Any consensus on if another pre-test rinse cycle is required before putting in the test OCI oil??

Suggested testing modality for determining high wear at beginning of OCI

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