Struggling to find a single line I disagree with
- Thread starter d00df00d
- Start date
- Status
I'm with you on the simpler is better for cars in general. But what you are asking for isn't going to happen. You cant order any car anymore like you used to be able to. Because the manufacturing costs are so much higher when you offer so many options, it's easier and cheaper just to load em all up.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
In that case, would you mind elaborating? You're the only one in the thread so far who has disagreed outright and it would be nice to have a well thought-out opinion on the other side.
Sure, bloat has nothing to do with the Toyota debacle.
In the first place, many people on here strenuously maintain that there are no flaws with Toyota vehicles that make them inherently unsafe. These people may very well be right - the issue thus far is not conclusive one way or the other. If there are no flaws in Toyota vehicles, bloat is irrelevant.
In the second place, if there is some flaw in Toyota vehicles making them inherently unsafe for their intended purpose, it appears to be strictly confined to Toyota vehicles. Other manufacturers, large and small, appear to have gotten modern systems mostly right. Again, bloat is irrelevant, at least as to all others.
In the third place, there have been ignoramuses as long as there have been people. I know people that were as ignorant about cars thirty years ago as they are today. Probably everybody knows similar people. Most people don't give a rip about how cars work or drive, bloated or otherwise. There is no relationship that I know of between bloat and automotive curiosity.
In the fourth place, anyone who wants to understand how their bloated cars work are free to do so. Service manuals are detailed and readily available. Bloat is again, irrelevant, to an understanding of how to service a modern car.
Finally, the market has spoken. No one wants a cheap, stripped down, car so no one bothers to make one.
You may want a simple car and this is your business - feel free to lobby, cajole, plead, whatever, mainstream manufacturers to produce such a vehicle and reward them with your money when they do so.
Myself, I'll buy whatever I want, as that is my business, and mine alone, and it will be "bloated" because that's how I like things.
In that case, would you mind elaborating? You're the only one in the thread so far who has disagreed outright and it would be nice to have a well thought-out opinion on the other side.
Sure, bloat has nothing to do with the Toyota debacle.
In the first place, many people on here strenuously maintain that there are no flaws with Toyota vehicles that make them inherently unsafe. These people may very well be right - the issue thus far is not conclusive one way or the other. If there are no flaws in Toyota vehicles, bloat is irrelevant.
In the second place, if there is some flaw in Toyota vehicles making them inherently unsafe for their intended purpose, it appears to be strictly confined to Toyota vehicles. Other manufacturers, large and small, appear to have gotten modern systems mostly right. Again, bloat is irrelevant, at least as to all others.
In the third place, there have been ignoramuses as long as there have been people. I know people that were as ignorant about cars thirty years ago as they are today. Probably everybody knows similar people. Most people don't give a rip about how cars work or drive, bloated or otherwise. There is no relationship that I know of between bloat and automotive curiosity.
In the fourth place, anyone who wants to understand how their bloated cars work are free to do so. Service manuals are detailed and readily available. Bloat is again, irrelevant, to an understanding of how to service a modern car.
Finally, the market has spoken. No one wants a cheap, stripped down, car so no one bothers to make one.
You may want a simple car and this is your business - feel free to lobby, cajole, plead, whatever, mainstream manufacturers to produce such a vehicle and reward them with your money when they do so.
Myself, I'll buy whatever I want, as that is my business, and mine alone, and it will be "bloated" because that's how I like things.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Your buying choices affect the market. The market affects everyone in it. Thus, your choices affect everyone.
When you buy a bloated car, you're voting for a market with more bloated cars, which means fewer simple cars.
Since most people have been voting for bloated cars, most of our cars are bloated. This has a lot of implications. One is that problems like this Toyota fiasco are bound to happen.
Is your ride a stripped out, 'factory lightweight/CSL' (leichtbau?) version?? NO unnecessary electronics/luxocr*p?
Did they let you buy your Bayerische this way (if you purchased it new)?
Curious minds want to know.
Your buying choices affect the market. The market affects everyone in it. Thus, your choices affect everyone.
When you buy a bloated car, you're voting for a market with more bloated cars, which means fewer simple cars.
Since most people have been voting for bloated cars, most of our cars are bloated. This has a lot of implications. One is that problems like this Toyota fiasco are bound to happen.
Is your ride a stripped out, 'factory lightweight/CSL' (leichtbau?) version?? NO unnecessary electronics/luxocr*p?
Did they let you buy your Bayerische this way (if you purchased it new)?
Curious minds want to know.
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Is your ride a stripped out, 'factory lightweight/CSL' (leichtbau?) version?? NO unnecessary electronics/luxocr*p?
Did they let you buy your Bayerische this way (if you purchased it new)?
Curious minds want to know.
First of all, it's a '96. There was no CSL. There was a lightweight in the E36 generation, but those are rare and uber expensive.
Second, it's as close to a basic model as I could come on my budget. I got it used for a very low price from a friend. The other cars I could get at this price would have had a lot more miles and wouldn't have been nearly as reliable.
Third, it has manual seats, non-adjustable steering column, manual transmission, cable throttle, no CD player... I wouldn't mind ditching the sunroof but that costs time and money I don't have.
This is exactly my point, by the way.
Is your ride a stripped out, 'factory lightweight/CSL' (leichtbau?) version?? NO unnecessary electronics/luxocr*p?
Did they let you buy your Bayerische this way (if you purchased it new)?
Curious minds want to know.
First of all, it's a '96. There was no CSL. There was a lightweight in the E36 generation, but those are rare and uber expensive.
Second, it's as close to a basic model as I could come on my budget. I got it used for a very low price from a friend. The other cars I could get at this price would have had a lot more miles and wouldn't have been nearly as reliable.
Third, it has manual seats, non-adjustable steering column, manual transmission, cable throttle, no CD player... I wouldn't mind ditching the sunroof but that costs time and money I don't have.
This is exactly my point, by the way.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
Quote:
Myself, I'll buy whatever I want, as that is my business, and mine alone, and it will be "bloated" because that's how I like things.
You will buy what you choose from what is available. You don't have the option in the future to not buy bloat ..even though it's irrelevant..when and if you change your mind.
Myself, I'll buy whatever I want, as that is my business, and mine alone, and it will be "bloated" because that's how I like things.
You will buy what you choose from what is available. You don't have the option in the future to not buy bloat ..even though it's irrelevant..when and if you change your mind.
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2002
- Messages
- 39,798
Originally Posted By: XS650
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Your buying choices affect the market. The market affects everyone in it. Thus, your choices affect everyone.
When you buy a bloated car, you're voting for a market with more bloated cars, which means fewer simple cars.
Since most people have been voting for bloated cars, most of our cars are bloated. This has a lot of implications. One is that problems like this Toyota fiasco are bound to happen.
I blame it on the people that want simple cars that haven't been buying the most simple new cars available.
The desire for simplicity is part of some maturation process. I see it most in trade professionals. The trans shop owner was so happy that he had found an Isuzu pickup. It didn't even have a radio.
Some are slaves to sophistication and complexity, but often find that they exchange one form or toil for another and find the whole notion something they would rather not participate in.
Those who have this desire are finding it harder and harder to opt out of complexity.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Your buying choices affect the market. The market affects everyone in it. Thus, your choices affect everyone.
When you buy a bloated car, you're voting for a market with more bloated cars, which means fewer simple cars.
Since most people have been voting for bloated cars, most of our cars are bloated. This has a lot of implications. One is that problems like this Toyota fiasco are bound to happen.
I blame it on the people that want simple cars that haven't been buying the most simple new cars available.
The desire for simplicity is part of some maturation process. I see it most in trade professionals. The trans shop owner was so happy that he had found an Isuzu pickup. It didn't even have a radio.
Some are slaves to sophistication and complexity, but often find that they exchange one form or toil for another and find the whole notion something they would rather not participate in.
Those who have this desire are finding it harder and harder to opt out of complexity.
Very true, Home electronics is a good example. I had to buy a DVD player the other year, my requirements were simple; Put DVD in, press go. Other than that I want Fast Forward, Stop and Rewind.
Every machine I saw was way to complex, controllers with 50+ buttons, Pull down menus etc.
I have better things to do with my life than learn this garbage, my needs are simple, I want machines to SIMPLY fulfill them.
My Best purchase in the last 5 years was a Tivoli Radio, a simple 3 knob radio that sound great!
Now please put one in a Car!
Every machine I saw was way to complex, controllers with 50+ buttons, Pull down menus etc.
I have better things to do with my life than learn this garbage, my needs are simple, I want machines to SIMPLY fulfill them.
My Best purchase in the last 5 years was a Tivoli Radio, a simple 3 knob radio that sound great!
Now please put one in a Car!
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Is your ride a stripped out, 'factory lightweight/CSL' (leichtbau?) version?? NO unnecessary electronics/luxocr*p?
Did they let you buy your Bayerische this way (if you purchased it new)?
Curious minds want to know.
First of all, it's a '96. There was no CSL. There was a lightweight in the E36 generation, but those are rare and uber expensive.
Second, it's as close to a basic model as I could come on my budget. I got it used for a very low price from a friend. The other cars I could get at this price would have had a lot more miles and wouldn't have been nearly as reliable.
Third, it has manual seats, non-adjustable steering column, manual transmission, cable throttle, no CD player... I wouldn't mind ditching the sunroof but that costs time and money I don't have.
This is exactly my point, by the way.
Absolutely right. I couldnt buy a 118, 318, 120d, etc if I wanted to. Why? Marketing says that a "luxury posture" must be maintained to make buyers feel that they are better than the next guy by buying an overfeatured, overpriced vehicle.
And it shuttles down to lower end brands too. Ive long griped about the tire size increases, because it is another one of these bloats that long term, most cannot afford in terms of maintenance.
The dumbing down and feature bloat is also why I cant buy most gm vehicles - if I want an MT in a mainstream car, many domestics cannot fulfill. This is due to laziness and stupidity in the general population, IMO, and also the fact that folks all want to feel more "high end", so they want to feel like their cars are decked out in a more fancy way.
Id love individual options and more engine/trans options on more vehicles.
Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Is your ride a stripped out, 'factory lightweight/CSL' (leichtbau?) version?? NO unnecessary electronics/luxocr*p?
Did they let you buy your Bayerische this way (if you purchased it new)?
Curious minds want to know.
First of all, it's a '96. There was no CSL. There was a lightweight in the E36 generation, but those are rare and uber expensive.
Second, it's as close to a basic model as I could come on my budget. I got it used for a very low price from a friend. The other cars I could get at this price would have had a lot more miles and wouldn't have been nearly as reliable.
Third, it has manual seats, non-adjustable steering column, manual transmission, cable throttle, no CD player... I wouldn't mind ditching the sunroof but that costs time and money I don't have.
This is exactly my point, by the way.
Absolutely right. I couldnt buy a 118, 318, 120d, etc if I wanted to. Why? Marketing says that a "luxury posture" must be maintained to make buyers feel that they are better than the next guy by buying an overfeatured, overpriced vehicle.
And it shuttles down to lower end brands too. Ive long griped about the tire size increases, because it is another one of these bloats that long term, most cannot afford in terms of maintenance.
The dumbing down and feature bloat is also why I cant buy most gm vehicles - if I want an MT in a mainstream car, many domestics cannot fulfill. This is due to laziness and stupidity in the general population, IMO, and also the fact that folks all want to feel more "high end", so they want to feel like their cars are decked out in a more fancy way.
Id love individual options and more engine/trans options on more vehicles.
Folks, I really think you have missed the historical aspect to all of this. People(the market) didnt neccesarily choose for the cars to be more loaded down. If you remember the domestics always had long and plentiful options lists that someone could order from. You could still buy a simple domestic car before the Japanese invasion. It was the Japanese manufacturing process that changed things, the Japanese have never had extensive options lists, they offer cars with packages that simplify manufacturing and save them money. The domestics have largely adopted this same process and now offer very little in options as well. Try doing a radio delete, like was very common thirty years ago. Try doing an A/C delete, that was easy as well in the past, not even possible today.
Also, dont forget the Federal Government in all it's wisdom is behind a lot of this bloat. Can you say TPMS or any such similar federally mandated bloat such as the new anti roll over programs.
Also, dont forget the Federal Government in all it's wisdom is behind a lot of this bloat. Can you say TPMS or any such similar federally mandated bloat such as the new anti roll over programs.
JHZR2
Staff member
But as I understand it (correct me if I am wrong), getting more individualized/individual options is possible in Europe at least... so it is still done, just not necessarily available to us here...
Honestly, I can maybe see why one would want radio delete on a work vehicle, but I cannot fathom why any typical buyer would want radio or AC delete on their vehicle.
It is all the other stuff that adds nothing but unreliability...
Honestly, I can maybe see why one would want radio delete on a work vehicle, but I cannot fathom why any typical buyer would want radio or AC delete on their vehicle.
It is all the other stuff that adds nothing but unreliability...
With radios and other items being expected and much less expensive, it's likely cheaper to install them than to leave them out.
Ditto for things like A/C. I can't remember the last time I've seen a car that has a different belt routing for non-AC vs AC. It's expect, it reduces the number of combinations to build, which means no odd-ball non-ac wiring harness or accessory belt to stock and make sure gets to the right place at the right time on the line.
I know for some GM's the interface to things like the OLM are built into the radio, so there is no way to do a radio delete. I'm sure this is not unique as many cars now have touch screen for radio/nav that have this sort of functionality built in.
Ditto for things like A/C. I can't remember the last time I've seen a car that has a different belt routing for non-AC vs AC. It's expect, it reduces the number of combinations to build, which means no odd-ball non-ac wiring harness or accessory belt to stock and make sure gets to the right place at the right time on the line.
I know for some GM's the interface to things like the OLM are built into the radio, so there is no way to do a radio delete. I'm sure this is not unique as many cars now have touch screen for radio/nav that have this sort of functionality built in.
Yeah, engine/tranny options that are more diverse in the EU. But for the most part, the electrical and technical options that we are all complaining about. Are present on all cars there as well.
And consider this, for the most part Detroit is not in competition with the EU name plates. Some overlap and competition of course, but the bread and butter cars are where the money is at, not at the fringes. Now that VW has decided to make a real effort at gaining some NA market share, that may change a bit.
When the Japanese builders started the big push here, they were only available in packages, with set option groups, it helped them on costs. It is much cheaper to plan for and build a lot of cars with similar features than it is a lot of cars with many variable features. Before the Japanese push into America, any domestic car could be ordered with any combination of RPO codes and options. That all ended when they had to take on the Japanese.
I just mention radio/AC delete because they were two that were common back in the day. Now a days, the way they pair up options and group them, you cant pick and choose what you want and dont want.
And consider this, for the most part Detroit is not in competition with the EU name plates. Some overlap and competition of course, but the bread and butter cars are where the money is at, not at the fringes. Now that VW has decided to make a real effort at gaining some NA market share, that may change a bit.
When the Japanese builders started the big push here, they were only available in packages, with set option groups, it helped them on costs. It is much cheaper to plan for and build a lot of cars with similar features than it is a lot of cars with many variable features. Before the Japanese push into America, any domestic car could be ordered with any combination of RPO codes and options. That all ended when they had to take on the Japanese.
I just mention radio/AC delete because they were two that were common back in the day. Now a days, the way they pair up options and group them, you cant pick and choose what you want and dont want.
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
I just mention radio/AC delete because they were two that were common back in the day. Now a days, the way they pair up options and group them, you cant pick and choose what you want and dont want.
I may be one of the few crazies who would have opted for a radio & AC delete if they were offered!
You could order a latter model 3rd gen f body with the 1LE package which gave you radio and AC delete, along with; bigger swaybars/stiffer bushings, lower/stiffer springs, and Koni double adjustable dampers, but most of these were ordered for Showroom Stock A class SCCA road racing use.
4th gen f bodies offered (in some years at least) a 1LE, but had NO option for radio/AC delete, but gave you all of the suspension goodies, and added a coolant to fluid power steering cooler.
As it is, I am one of the VERY FEW who actually went through the extra effort and bothered to order (with a BIG deposit, of course) my car sans T-Tops (hardtop), and 1SC option; base radio, and NO; cruise control, power door locks/mirrors/seats, traction control, etc.
It was simpler, less expensive, less complicated, lighter, faster, probably gets slightly better gas mileage than a fully loaded car, and VERY reliable!!
My only extra cost options were the above mentioned power steering cooler, and summer only, non all-season tires.
I even deleted the rear window defroster (wire line type)!
So yeah, I guess I agree with all of those who want NO bloat, and simplicity, and I DID "vote with my wallet" to get such (because I COULD).
I just mention radio/AC delete because they were two that were common back in the day. Now a days, the way they pair up options and group them, you cant pick and choose what you want and dont want.
I may be one of the few crazies who would have opted for a radio & AC delete if they were offered!
You could order a latter model 3rd gen f body with the 1LE package which gave you radio and AC delete, along with; bigger swaybars/stiffer bushings, lower/stiffer springs, and Koni double adjustable dampers, but most of these were ordered for Showroom Stock A class SCCA road racing use.
4th gen f bodies offered (in some years at least) a 1LE, but had NO option for radio/AC delete, but gave you all of the suspension goodies, and added a coolant to fluid power steering cooler.
As it is, I am one of the VERY FEW who actually went through the extra effort and bothered to order (with a BIG deposit, of course) my car sans T-Tops (hardtop), and 1SC option; base radio, and NO; cruise control, power door locks/mirrors/seats, traction control, etc.
It was simpler, less expensive, less complicated, lighter, faster, probably gets slightly better gas mileage than a fully loaded car, and VERY reliable!!
My only extra cost options were the above mentioned power steering cooler, and summer only, non all-season tires.
I even deleted the rear window defroster (wire line type)!
So yeah, I guess I agree with all of those who want NO bloat, and simplicity, and I DID "vote with my wallet" to get such (because I COULD).
Me too. I never (ok, very seldom) listen to the radio. I know that within a few years I will come out to my car and find the window busted and the radio gone. Would be better not to have it.
I have A/C but never use that either. Seldom gets that warm here. If I was in Cali, sure, but for me, no point. Just another weight dragging down my mileage.
Manual tranny. Manual windows. Manual door locks. No cruise control.
I like it!
I have A/C but never use that either. Seldom gets that warm here. If I was in Cali, sure, but for me, no point. Just another weight dragging down my mileage.
Manual tranny. Manual windows. Manual door locks. No cruise control.
I like it!
- Status
Similar threads
