STA-BIL questions, or better alternative?

[doitmyself]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Quest
I can see that B&S recently introduced an extremely potent fuel stabiliser in the market, which claims to contains additional metal deactivators to minimise carb corrosion (damage). I would like to get my hands on them.

Is it the Briggs & Stratton Fresh Start Fuel Stabilizer Plus ? Or something else?


That's the same claims made by Marine Stabil, but I can't answer your question.

I once heard that Gold Eagle makes the B&S products. I just got off the phone with them. Their answer was " We do private label some products. The B&S product is a different formulation than Stabil." This can be interpreted several ways, but she didn't divulge my direct question. Sorry for the useless post.

 

[Quattro Pete]

OK, I think this may be the new B&S product that Quest was referring to:

Briggs & Stratton® Advanced Formula Fuel Treatment & Stabilizer

 

[wag123]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Am I the only one who finds it ironic that the gasoline "stabilizer" is NOT stable?

+1

Over the years of using various fuel stabilizers, I have found that STA-BIL does little or nothing IMO.
The Briggs & Stratton stabilizer works better but still doesn't live up to it's claims.
This stuff actually works; http://www.hirschauto.com/prodinfo.asp?number=FPS-01. I use it in my old cars, in my boat, and in my OPE fuel cans.

 

[kkreit01]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
OK, I think this may be the new B&S product that Quest was referring to:

Briggs & Stratton® Advanced Formula Fuel Treatment & Stabilizer


I like the looks if this. Thanks for the tip. I was just at TSC last night, and didn't know to look for it.

 

[Mr_Joe]

I use a little Stable & Seafoam. More important I search out non-ethanol gas. For Winter storage I try to run in a tank of 100LL aviation fuel.

 

[Quest]

Originally Posted By: wag123
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Am I the only one who finds it ironic that the gasoline "stabilizer" is NOT stable?

+1

Over the years of using various fuel stabilizers, I have found that STA-BIL does little or nothing IMO.
The Briggs & Stratton stabilizer works better but still doesn't live up to it's claims.
This stuff actually works; http://www.hirschauto.com/prodinfo.asp?number=FPS-01. I use it in my old cars, in my boat, and in my OPE fuel cans.


LOL! hindered phenols, alkylated diphenylamines, tertiary amines, etc. These are not really stable if exposed to elements (bottle of fuel stabilisers opened and exposed to air)....

Come to think of it: other than water (which is chemically stable due to ionic bond of Hydrogen and Oxygen), nothing chemically-stable if exposed to the elements.

So, it come as a no surprise if sta-bil set a shelf life(once opened) of 2 years so as to maintain product effectiveness.

(even canned soups or canned(sealed) dried powdered milk formulas come with expiration date nowadays)

2 other things of notice:

(a) those who claimed that despite their addition of marine sta-bil or regular sta-bil red (or other stabilisers out there) to their marine engine gas should seriously take a sample of their gas off their fuel tank to see if the gas is, what it's supposed to be. Many marinas have badly maintained fuel tanks with water and/or sediments in them. So, no matter how much fuel stabilisers you add to them after you fuel up, chances are, there exists one of the components (water/excessive moisture) that will already defy the effectiveness of fuel stabilisers starting from day-1).

(b) no matter how you dice it: fuel stabilisation for gasoline application that would not be used up within a couple of weeks time is still a good idea.

Those who claimed no need for fuel stabilisation over a prolonged storage period are literally gambling away with their expensive machines. I've thrown away rotten carbs (due to extremely rancid gas) in Northern Cali due to lack of proper preparation of vehicles during extended storage in a sub-optimal situation (vW bug). Carb bowl ended up with green slime and oxidation that nothing can do to remove; I've also serviced a couple of abandoned 1-cyl 50cc Italian 2-T moped (the ones that come with additional pedals) and their carbs are also done for due to improper storage. Ended up needing a complete strip down, soak in various solvents, simple green + industrial grade ultrasonic cleaning and POR-15 the fuel tank.

Q.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: Quest
I have used/still using (irregularly) 1-2-4 trimethylbenzene based fuel stabiliser on regular E10 gas, and it seems effective so far.


Are you sure it's a stabilizer? I thought it was a cleaner and was routinely added to gasoline. I just checked a bottle of cheap fuel system cleaner and it's mostly 1-2-4 trimethylbenzene.

 

[Quest]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek

Are you sure it's a stabilizer? I thought it was a cleaner and was routinely added to gasoline. I just checked a bottle of cheap fuel system cleaner and it's mostly 1-2-4 trimethylbenzene.


Up north, we have motomaster (SKU 38-0909-2) concentrated fuel stabiliser that contains mainly 3 ingredients (listed at the back: mineral spirtis, Isopropyl alcohol and 1,2,4-trimethylbenzene).

and yes, 1,2,4-trimethylbenzene is being used extensively for fuel stabilisation, while mineral spirits and isopropyl alcohol are not.


Q.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: Quest
Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek

Are you sure it's a stabilizer? I thought it was a cleaner and was routinely added to gasoline. I just checked a bottle of cheap fuel system cleaner and it's mostly 1-2-4 trimethylbenzene.


Up north, we have motomaster (SKU 38-0909-2) concentrated fuel stabiliser that contains mainly 3 ingredients (listed at the back: mineral spirtis, Isopropyl alcohol and 1,2,4-trimethylbenzene).

and yes, 1,2,4-trimethylbenzene is being used extensively for fuel stabilisation, while mineral spirits and isopropyl alcohol are not.


Q.


Interesting. 1,2,4-trimethylbenzene is basically a potent solvent (benzene derivative) with no antioxidative activity.

So, gas stabilizers are either ani-oxidants to prevent oxidation or potent solvents to keep oxidation products in solution.

That validates seafoam or other solvents as preventing gum depositions. However,this would not prevent my carb problems as gas evaporates from carb after long term storage leaving deposits behind.

The only viable solution I see is using up all gas from carb before winterization or any long term storage. While doing that I could also spike the carb fuel bowl with a decent dose of fogging oil or TWC3 or ATF or MMO to fog cylinders and carb at the same time.

 

[Quest]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek
Interesting. 1,2,4-trimethylbenzene is basically a potent solvent (benzene derivative) with no antioxidative activity.

So, gas stabilizers are either ani-oxidants to prevent oxidation or potent solvents to keep oxidation products in solution.

That validates seafoam or other solvents as preventing gum depositions. However,this would not prevent my carb problems as gas evaporates from carb after long term storage leaving deposits behind.

The only viable solution I see is using up all gas from carb before winterization or any long term storage. While doing that I could also spike the carb fuel bowl with a decent dose of fogging oil or TWC3 or ATF or MMO to fog cylinders and carb at the same time.


Are you referring to your most recent encountering RE: carb fouled on your Merc cruiser on your boat?

If so, I'm afraid your situation is somewhat different, with the following issues:

unless you haul your own jerry can of fuel from automotive gas pumps to your boat and fuel it away from the dock(marina), most of the time, fuel bought from marina gas stations come with very high levels of impurities (e.g. water and debris).

-I have, until 2008 (until my fishing buddy sold his boat), worked occasionally on his 23ft fishing boat that moored at the marinas. gasoline comes with water when bought from marina and I have to (even though we doped it with Sta-bil red regularly before storage), drain the carb bowl and fog the cylinders before we keep it through winter time.

-some of his mooring neighbours have "green carb" issues due to (a) they didn't use fuel-stabilisers during storage; and (b) there's significantly more moisture (water) in the gas sold at that nearby marina than those hand-carried to the boat from automotive fueling stations (Gas stations around the neighbourhood).

My observation calls for the fact that: with excess moisture mixed with gas and into your tank, no matter how you much you try to dope your fuel with stabilisers, your fuel is still gonna go bad in a couple of month's time.


Good luck on your carb rebuild process. Let me know if you like to discuss this subject further.

(**I have a B&S675 coming in for carb-rebuild this upcoming weekend..due to owner's ignorance and neglect**)

Q.

 

[sdowney717]

I had some 7 year old gas needed to use up.
About 40 gallons in twin tanks on the boat is what I have left now. I started with about 150 gallons I needed to work with.
Mixed in MMO, ATF, Marine stabil and PRI-G and some high test fresh gas.

Before I added the ATF, the gas would stick the valves every time, several pushrods ended up being bent.
With the ATF of 1 quart in each tank, no more valve sticking.
The gas is still degraded in octane but I can slowly burn it. I know it is degraded because running it in the fuel injected car makes a lot less acceleration power. In the car I need to add fresh premium gas 50-50 to get it to run ok. the other problem is it tends to clog the fuel filter and then I have to flush it and re-install the same filter.

When I first added fresh e10 gas, it unstuck and dissolved 40 years worth of tank gums into the fuel which I had to setup a separate pump and filter to help clear out. First pump was a simple vacuum jar to suck muck off the tank bottom. after eventually clearing the muck, I started recirculating the fuel thru several filters continually for hours and hours and days and days.
I got it all out. The current gas has a deep green color which must be from all the preservatives I have dumped into the gas.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: Quest

Are you referring to your most recent encountering RE: carb fouled on your Merc cruiser on your boat?

If so, I'm afraid your situation is somewhat different, with the following issues:

unless you haul your own jerry can of fuel from automotive gas pumps to your boat and fuel it away from the dock(marina), most of the time, fuel bought from marina gas stations come with very high levels of impurities (e.g. water and debris).


Yes, this is about that Mercarb: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...296#Post2608296

No, it's not different. The gas is from regular pumps ("up to 10% ethanol") as the boat is trailered.

I was impressed how the fuel filter was very clean after 9 years, so the deposits are mostly inside carb and nowhere else.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Sdowney,
Interesting story on old gas recycling.

I think green color is from oxidation products that you re-suspended in fresh gas added. This is exactly the color of dried gum in carbs and the old gas I drained (over 1 year old) was slightly yellowish-greenish.

BTW, interesting tidbit about ATF. Even though everyone here on BITOG argues that there is no way ATF can clean anything, there are enough rumors to suggest that it actually does something.

 

[Quest]

@jacek:

If there's truth in rumours to begin with, then it won't be labelled as "rumours" to begin with, oui?

I trust our resident tribologist (Molakule) RE: ATF solvency and the use of ATF as engine flush (common in backyard mechs up to this day): ATF doesn't have the kind of solvency that you think it possesses to have, period.

I've soaked all kinds of othrwise ruined engine/carb components in various different chemicals (still has some in glass vials soaking under Mobil 1 ATF as we speak), and fact of the matter is, if the deposits are mineral type (due to chemical decomposition of some sort), nothing hydrocarbon based can break it down to the point of being satisfactorily restored.

I've thrown away, during the past 2 decades or more, ruined carb parts due to decomposed gasoline. brass jets, small carb bodies, etc. I have tried using all sorts of readily avail (otc if you ask)chemicals and there's only a handful or less that will work:

for mineral/carbon deposits: safety-kleen combustin chamber cleaner works if you soak it long enough. However, I suspect that because it comes with a very strong ammonia smell, it's not good for brass parts such as carb jets, etc.

other mineral deposits can be safely removed by weak acids: vinegar (monitor the progress and neutralise it by baking soda) as soon as it's 80% clean. don't overdo it if you want to salvage your jet parts.

all other deposits are a done deal, meaning that they cannot be salvaged satisfactorily.

Q.

and no, MMO doesn't do squat and neither did Seafoam.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: Quest

I've thrown away, during the past 2 decades or more, ruined carb parts due to decomposed gasoline. brass jets, small carb bodies, etc. I have tried using all sorts of readily avail (otc if you ask)chemicals and there's only a handful or less that will work:

for mineral/carbon deposits: safety-kleen combustin chamber cleaner works if you soak it long enough. However, I suspect that because it comes with a very strong ammonia smell, it's not good for brass parts such as carb jets, etc.

other mineral deposits can be safely removed by weak acids: vinegar (monitor the progress and neutralise it by baking soda) as soon as it's 80% clean. don't overdo it if you want to salvage your jet parts.

all other deposits are a done deal, meaning that they cannot be salvaged satisfactorily.

Q.

and no, MMO doesn't do squat and neither did Seafoam.


Interesting. I only cleaned 1 carb so far, so I'm a noob of course, but it was very remarkable how the dry green crust was cleaned with ease by OTC hot water+dish detergent+old toothbrush.

I came across a description that the best carb cleaning is done with hot lemon juice, but I chose not to do it, as hot water is easier to get.

 

[kkreit01]

Wanted to update my own thread, as I mowed last night. I replaced the original/OE Torch (?) plug with a new E3. Don't laugh...I've had good luck with using them in OPE. The original was 5 yrs old. The Cub runs like a champ now. Seriously, it was a night and day difference. It was even warm and humid last night, and it purred like a kitten with the new E3 plug. Granted, it may have run better with any new plug, but I like the E3s for small engines. Here's a few pics of the OE plug (I snapped this morning with my cell phone):

I guess I'll keep using my STA-BIL until it turns brown, dark red, or bottle is empty. The 89 oct QT gas must be OK as well. Thanks again for all your tips.

 

[sewagerat]

I use Star Tron ( made by Star bright ) fuel stabilizer enzyme treatment for all my OPE and 4 wheeler. It's made for ethonol blended fuels. Works great. I buy mine at Tractor Supply.