ST 5w-30; 15k miles; Villager 245k miles

Status
Not open for further replies.
This was WPP stuff.


I also would like to answer a PM question, but here in public for the discussion.

I fully understand that this is out of the comfort zone for many folks; I get that. It is NOT to be undertaken on a whim; you need to understand what you're doing and why.

However, here's what even Joe Average can take away from this:
there is a very large safety factor built into OEM OCIs, today's quality lubes, and filters.

Often we hear of folks justify their use of syns and premium filters because even though they only run 5-6k miles, they want "the added protection" of having those products just in case they over-run their intended OCI (As if any BITOGGER ever misses the chance to turn a wrench ....) This is the "cheap insurance" philosophy.

Well, I think I've shown that to be an invalid fear. There is a HUGE amount of reserve performance capacity in normal everyday lubes and filters. If you intended OCI is 5-7.5k miles, you most certainly don't "need" syns and a Pure One or K&N as a safety net. Good ol' dino oil and a decent filter can probably take you to 15k miles in a decent running engine. While you may feel it's not optimum, (and I might agree in some circumstances), it's surely not the end-of-the-world the way many BITOGers preach it to be. In the lack of evidence, perhaps there might be some logic to it. But between the long runs and tracking that 2010_FX4 has shown, Jim's filter info, and my exteneded runs, it's just an irrational fear to think that if you over-run an OCI by a few thousand miles, it would risk your precious investment. Heck, you could flat forget to OCI and blow right into the next one 7.5k miles later, and not be badly hurt. While perhaps not optimum, there is no need to panic if you miss an OCI. Just change the lube and filter, reset your OLM (electronic or hand-written) and sleep well at night realizing that your investment is not hopelessly damaged. So while I could understand that ultra-conservative approach in the absence of data, now that we have good info to show otherwise, you're already well protected even with normal" products, should you over-run your normal OCI. You don't need syns and such for added protection; it's already in the bottle, quite literally.
 
Last edited:
Varnish can be a problem on long OCI. A lot of timing chain tensioners will varnish quickly and not function properly. And VVT solenoids can have a problem with varnish.
 
Originally Posted By: millerbl00
Varnish can be a problem on long OCI. A lot of timing chain tensioners will varnish quickly and not function properly. And VVT solenoids can have a problem with varnish.


I have yet to see varnish on my external timing belt ...

Again - this is not a one-size-fits-all statement. You need to analyze your personal situation and know the history and family traits of your engine. But seems like some of you are just itching to find a chink in the armor, rather than just admit your outdated mindset needs a paradigm shift.
 
Not talking about external timing belt. Not criticizing your OCI but I had problems with just an 7500 OCI and timing chain tensioners and VVT solenoids on my car and that was with Synthetic. But the timing chain tensioners and VVT solenoid were cheaply made on this brand.


Also big differance in an 15000 OCI in a dual overhead came VVT engine and engines that have no VVT or just pushrod engine. My VVT engine could not even do a 7500 OCI.
 
Last edited:
I don't disagree with you.

But that's covered; you must know your application and there inherrent risks therein. There are always exceptions to the rule. We all understand that.
 
Dave

Thanks for the effort and for sharing.

Based on where you and others have been going through testing, the results come as no surprise.

Also we know that in general, oils and filters have large reserve performance compared to oci and fci precisely because auto manufacturers need to plan for misuse by a significant minority. The YouTube videos on the OCOD show this reserve even in the cheapest products.

A conclusion of yours that was most intriguing is that we can ignore TBN and TAN.

However, did you find it interesting how much TBN increased between 10k to 15k? Would half a quart over 5k improve it that much?

You also point out that your results do not automatically mean one should go out to 15k (regardless of the oil being dino or syn).

This is sound advice. There are plenty of cases where particular engines have not dealt well with extended oil changes even manufacturer mandated.

But no doubt you've proven yours can.
 
Wow looks like a great UOA! I am looking for a new combo to run in my parents' 2000 Villager next oil change. A little OT, but is this still on the original transmission? I inherited my parents' '93 Villager that was on it's third rebuild @ 150k miles when I got rid of it. Their 2000 is still on the original transmission @ 100k miles (I have kept up on trans fluid changes on it).

I wonder if the fact that this isn't a very complex engine has much to do with the good long UOA.
 
Now I know why my brother's old oil burning Saturn ran for so long without oil changes...just keep it topped off and go. This is probably while Honda says to change the oil filters every other oil change.
 
Originally Posted By: cp3
Originally Posted By: Brybo86
big jump in wear between 230k to 240k... unless the puro classic was impressing us by removing Iron?


Not really, 0.003 vs 0.0034 PPM/mile or about 13% increase.


wow typical jack donkey response. all I'm saying is that the ppm of iron doubled by using a different filter.

impressive results, just mentioning what caught my eye
 
I would caution folks to not confuse correlation with causation.

I don't think the filter was what allowed the Fe to escalate. Fe generally tracks with mileage; up more and get more. However, most of us suspect that the increases in metals are due to the Si leak, which eludes me at this time, even after efforts to erradicate it. Still - even with the Si leak, wear is very acceptable even after 15k miles.


As for the tranny, it's OEM; never been apart and only had OCIs every 30k miles as prescribed in the manual. Shifts flawlessly and has been serviced with nothing but house brand Dex/Merc fluids. Even have a UOA from some time back that shows the tranny in superb shape.
 
Originally Posted By: Brybo86
Originally Posted By: cp3
Originally Posted By: Brybo86
big jump in wear between 230k to 240k... unless the puro classic was impressing us by removing Iron?


Not really, 0.003 vs 0.0034 PPM/mile or about 13% increase.


wow typical jack donkey response. all I'm saying is that the ppm of iron doubled by using a different filter.

impressive results, just mentioning what caught my eye


Classy reply!

Had you bothered to think it through and point out that maybe I misunderstood your post and noted that the 13% difference was from the 10k to 15k not between the two 10k runs I could have offered an apology.

I'll be sure to try not to make anymore "jack donkey" responses to your posts.
wink.gif
 
Good info, but like you've reinforced, it applies to this engine/vehicle.

It would be interesting to see under the valve covers/intake just to see if all is looking good.
 
dnewton3....

You are very "forceful" in your rhetoric. You are very convinced of your results. You make some very valid points about BITOG mythology and lore. I like your attitude and stance.

HOWEVER, if you are going to be so bullish (and I applaud you for being so), please show us the actual reports from Blackstone and send your filter to someone to have them properly open it up and examine it.

It's not that I doubt you, but if you are going to "preach" to us all, have your evidence in order.
 
Originally Posted By: Phishin
dnewton3....

You are very "forceful" in your rhetoric. You are very convinced of your results. You make some very valid points about BITOG mythology and lore. I like your attitude and stance.

HOWEVER, if you are going to be so bullish (and I applaud you for being so), please show us the actual reports from Blackstone and send your filter to someone to have them properly open it up and examine it.

It's not that I doubt you, but if you are going to "preach" to us all, have your evidence in order.


And, of course, you are going to help defray the cost (likely in the high hundreds to a thousand-plus dollars) of having the filter examined by some "authority." Yours is an unreasonable demand, IMO.

As to posting the UOA vs typing the data... I suppose that's a reasonably valid request but Dave Newton has a long and trustworthy record here so I trust him to cite the facts accurately. It would be pretty easy to fake up a Blackstone report if one was so inclined and I'm pretty sure that's been done here before. Plus, the Blackstone reports may not have shown all the data he wanted to present the way he wanted to present it as a comparison.

The nature of this forum is that we can "preach" as "forcefully" as we wish. You, as a fellow member, can either accept the information as valid or challenge it with your own counter information, which will stand the test or not. We all all free here to be idiots or biased brand-zealots here, as well as thoughtful and intellectually honest (if not a true expert) and objective. Sooner or later, the peer review here will show what you truly are. Dave's been here a long time and has earned a fair bit of trust. Except, apparently, from you.
 
Cutting open a filter and snapping a few pics with an iphone doesn't cost anything other than time.

I'd be happy to contribute to a filter cutter for Dave.
 
Dave has the means to cut the filter, and he said he would. I interpreted what Phishin said as wanting Dave to send the filter off for some sort of "proper" evaluation, to whit:

"and send your filter to someone to have them properly open it up and examine it."
 
I will make my best effort to get the filter cut open this weekend.

However, won't be able to get pics under the valve cover becaseu while I have to work this weekend, my wife and kids are going camping in the van, so it won't be around for me to work on. After all, it is a soccer-mom vehicle and is on the go ALL the time. I am more than willing to take pics under the front valve cover in the very near future. I will not take pics under the rear, unless someone contributes $500 for my time and case of beer, because the rear head is under the upper intake, which is under the cowling!

As for the data PDF versus the text block, I prefer the text block tool, as I have the ability to add data that Blackstone does not track such as average data on a per mile basis, standard deviations, etc. The data is correct, unless my fat little fingers made a typo (I don't think I did, but I am far from perfect ...)
 
Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Dave has the means to cut the filter, and he said he would. I interpreted what Phishin said as wanting Dave to send the filter off for some sort of "proper" evaluation, to whit:

"and send your filter to someone to have them properly open it up and examine it."


No Jim....that's not what I meant. Dave said he didn't have a filter opener (neither do I) and he'd have to cut it open with a hacksaw....which means it could contaminate the filter media with metal shavings from the can.

I just did the same thing, when I cut open a filter with a cutting disc and a Dremel. So, I understand not wanting to use a hack saw.

So, what I was suggesting is, for Dave to spend $3 and mail the filter to a BITOG member and have them use their cutter to open it up and post pictures of the filter for him. This might help Dave, since he seems to have issues with posting image files on here as well (Blackstone reports).
 
Last edited:
I'll mail it to Jim (whom I trust implicitly), if he'd be willing to disect it ...
I can cut it with a hacksaw, and in my experience the fines do stay localized at the cut line, so if we ignore that fresh cut material, the balance would be representative of the whole OCI. However, I would love to have someone cut it whom has some good experience with a true cutter.

I didn't take any offense to the nature of Phishin's request; I think I understood what he meant.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
I'll mail it to Jim (whom I trust implicitly), if he'd be willing to disect it ...
I can cut it with a hacksaw, and in my experience the fines do stay localized at the cut line, so if we ignore that fresh cut material, the balance would be representative of the whole OCI. However, I would love to have someone cut it whom has some good experience with a true cutter.

I didn't take any offense to the nature of Phishin's request; I think I understood what he meant.


Go ahead and send it. I have a good cutter and I'll take the pics too.

Phishin: Evidently, I misinterpreted your remarks. Sorry.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top