ST 5w-30; 15k miles; Villager 245k miles

dnewton3

Staff member
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8,459
Location
Indianapolis, IN
Here is the most recent run on my wife’s Villager. Typical soccer-mom use; a great many short trips and multiple starts. Same oil and filter for 15k miles; dino ST and FL400S. (The OCI started at 230k miles, was UOAd at 240k miles and again at 245k miles; total of 15k miles. Oil/filter were changed at 245k miles).
Sql Query:
 
UOA sample #	4	3	2				1	
Brand		Wm/ST	Wm/ST	Wm/ST				QS?	 
type		dino	dino	dino				syn	
grade 		5w30	5w30	5w30				5w30	
filter		MC	MC	Puro clsc			Wix
Oil miles	15k	10k	10k				5k 	 
Veh miles	245k	240k	230k				160k	
make up oil	2.0	1.5	1.0				.5	


					Blackstone Data 		Blackstone Data 
					w/ macro analysis		w/ macro analysis
					10k	10k			5k	5k	
				 	Univ	std			Univ	std 	
					Avg	dev			Avg	dev	
Al		5	3	2	7	2		3	4	2	
Cr		1	1	0	2	2		0	1	1	
Fe		29	19	7	18	8		8	10	5	
Cu		9	4	3	7	4		2	4	3	
Pb		7	3	2	10	8		0	5	5	
Tn		0	0	0	2	2		0	1	1	
Moly		39	35	40				55	61
Ni		1	0	0				0	0
Mang		0	0	0				0	1
Silver		0	0	0				0	0
Ti		3	3	3				0	0
Potas		0	3	0				2	1
Boron		4	4	3				21	39
Si		34	20	9				6	12
Sodium		37	38	39				2	31	
Calcium		2569	2365	2253				2760	2073	
Magn		14	14	13				15	205	
Phos		722	671	683				694	735	
Zinc		871	805	937				809	876
Barium		0	0	0				0	0	


							oil properties
Sus V @ 210 	62.3	58.0	57.8				57.6	54-63
cSt V @ 100 C 	10.86	9.65	9.58				9.54	8.5 - 11.3
FP 		440	405	395				360	> 365
Fuel		<.5	<.5	tr				tr	<2.0%
Insol		.4	.4	.4				.3	< .6
TBN		2.2	1.3	1.9				n/a	> 1.0
TAN		5.5	3.6	3.6				n/a

While many are going to decry the long use, look at the averaged wear per 1k miles; everything is actually well in control. There are very few samples in my database of any lube (syn or dino) going out this far, so I don’t have enough info to see true statistical averages and sigmas for 15k miles. But contrasting this data to 5k and 10k miles, the wear is still quite good overall. Silicon … I cannot seem to locate the intrusion source. Darn that mysterious leak. Despite my efforts to locate any leak, I cannot find it. I changed the air filter at 230k miles; I’m seriously wondering if the source of the leak is not the filter itself. If it were not for the Si, the wear would likely be even lower. Oil use: just about 2 quarts used in 15k miles. While that does skew the data slightly, I believe the use of less than 1qrt/5k miles is admirable, especially for lowly WallyWorld dino oil. TBN/TAN relationship: the TBN got a boost from the most recent top-off I suspect. TAN is “mildly acidic” per Blackstone comments. Proof that the crossover of TBN/TAN is nothing to fear. Those that fear TAN being off the chart in a “normal” OCI are probably afraid of something that simply does not materialize. Very few folks do what I am attempting, but at least my data is real world information, versus the hypothesis and conjecture from elsewhere. Unless you have some ravenous intake of sulphur, and never change your oil at all, TBN/TAN is moot. Get over it. I have paid for TBN/TAN in this vehicle and my Dmax. I have seen the data from 2010_FX4. I find no causation in low TBN or high TAN to show wear is affected to a degree that can be statiscially manipulated. If you were to run GREATLY extended OCIs, with bypass filtration, for many tens-of-thousands of miles, then it might be of interest. But I don't think I'll ever pay for TBN/TAN again; it's an overblown topic, especially in "normal" OCIs. Note the insolubles at .4! This was the same FL400S for 15k miles, and the same oil. And yet the insolubles are not even near the Blackstone condemnation limit of .6. What is apparent is that clean running engines don’t need super-capacity, extra-premium filters. And you surely don’t need them changed every 5k miles …. Note that the FL400S is not the correct filter for this engine. This filter has a bypass feature in it, and the stock filters do not, because the engine has a bypass valve inside it. So the engine had a double-bypass protection system of sorts. It was a mistake when I installed it; grabbed the wrong filter from the shelf in haste. But having two bypass valves (one in block; one in filter) really isn’t a risk, so I decided to leave it on there. Obviously, no harm done. Not sure of my direction at this time. My wife has informed me she wants a “newer” vehicle. Kids are just about old enough to start driving themselves soon, so she’ll not have to be the main transportation for them much longer. Therefore, the “need” for a van is dwindling fast. This vehicle may move on and we’ll get something else. This goes to my point often made about vehicle longevity and the “need” for premium products. We’ve owned this since bought new in 1995. Primarily had dino lubes it’s entire life. Wear at 245k miles is still well in control, even after extended OCIs. How much “better” would this engine be if I had used syns every 5k miles? It’s hard to say, but I doubt it can be that much different than the excellent wear already seen. And to what end? 2-3x more money on syns and premium filters would not save this vehicle from leaving our stable. It served its purpose for 18 years. Rust is really taking a heavy toll both aesthetically and mechanically. We have committed to driving it out to 250k miles, just as a milestone, for the fun of it. Past that, my wife deserves a newer ride. Anyone know of a gently used fuel miser for sale that has had syns and Pure Ones every 3k miles? grin2
 
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Messages
1,232
Location
SE Ohio
Wow, I think that looks great for 15k. Makes me wonder why I still can't seem to let it go much past 6k....
 
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Messages
28,129
Location
Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Looks great! I was wondering about that silicon, too; that's about the only thing that jumped out at me. I guess you'll have to see how it trends. You indicated when you changed the air filter; after that point was when things started to go odd.
 
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35,448
Location
NY
I often wondered, but never asked if a vacuum leak could cause higher silicon levels? If so I'd imagine there could be cars running with small vacuum leaks that people aren't even aware of causing elevated silicon levels? I'm not saying that's the case here, just asking a question. Thanks.
 
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4,455
Location
Massachusetts
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
I often wondered, but never asked if a vacuum leak could cause higher silicon levels?
Definitely! This UOA is commendable and makes the threads about syn vs dino very silly. Not many here use ANY oil to it's fullest and 9/10 times it's the feel good factor. I am a long time user of ST oils in my wife's Maxx. It's a great bang for the buck. We typically follow the OLM and the engine is like new inside. Well done!
 
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5,172
Location
Great White North.. eh
Wow, excellent report. I agree, without that pesky Si you would have had even lower "wear" numbers. Strong ending TBN, viscosity, FP. What happened to today's dino's that allow such abuse? It wasn't like that in the past. The Vegas taxi test showed nothing but sludge @ 15k intervals.
 
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81
Location
Southern Ohio
Wow! Maybe i wont get so weirded out when synthetic gets around 7.5k and get all worried! I think we have been so pushed to worry about 3k changes its stuck in our psyche!
 
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117
Location
STL Area
Thanks for sharing the information, I will definitely be doing at least one OCI with ST to see how the Sorento likes it.
 
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4,563
Location
NW Ohio
What can you say... it works. More and more I learn how needlessly obsessive I was in the past. This is more proof positive that most you reading this are underutilizing the potential in your oils and filters. This is just about the cheapest oil you can buy that's not on the PQIA fecal list and look??? And it's in a 245K mile engine that doesn't have an optimal driving scenario! Anyone who reads this should be reevaluating their maintenance plans. Isn't that funny that the iron at 29 ppm is exactly the same as my 15K run. Demarpaint has a great idea about the vacuum leak but if you don't find one, try a new air filter, Dave. When that Villager goes down the road, your whole family should stand at at attention in the driveway and present arms. It served you well.
 
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1,238
Location
upstate NY
Thanks for the real world testing Dave! I have a question though...wouldn't you say the TAN did have an affect on the bearings? There was a noticable jump in copper/lead from the 10k up to the 15k sample. While the numbers are not sky high...would that not be from acid attacking the bearings in those last five thousand? That is a genuine question...not a criticism laced question, Dave. Thanks!
 
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8,992
Location
Houston, TX
Looking good Dave! I agree with others, perhaps the air filter is the source of your silicon. Try a NAPA Gold filter if one is available for your vehicle. I switched from MC to NG and dropped my silicon from 19/21 to 11/13. I have been looking at 5W-20 for too many OCs; did the oil thicken a little? For your TAN, it would be nice to know where it started so that you could see how much it actually increased, but it is still not that acidic. Thanks for the information!
 
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14,595
Location
Central NY
Data like this is why I have no problems running MS5K up to 7500 (or 6 months per warranty)for my "summer" oil change. Sounds to me like you are getting your money out of this van from all aspects. Buying it and driving it 20 years, 250K miles and safely extending the OCI on cheap oil. What did you run for OCIs when it was new?
 

dnewton3

Staff member
Thread starter
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8,459
Location
Indianapolis, IN
Thanks all for the postive comments. As for the jump up in Cu and Pb, I must take a postion of caution because two things are in play here. One is Si, one is acid. We cannot know how much each one individually is contributing to the slight wear number increase; we can only know the cumulative effect not the sole effects. But, I'll mention this ... it really does not matter! Despite the Si and the TAN, the wear was still very low and in control; wear was well within one standard sigma! Could it be "better" with reduced Si and TAN? Probably so, but that would only make the OCI worthy of even more extension! Think about it ... I have "normal" wear, despite silica and acid. I would not hesitate in the least to run 20k+ if I could manage the Si back down, because the acid alone is not the only contributor here. To summarize: Si intrusion Slight acid build up Dino Walmart oil Normal filters Excellent wear trending I don't think life could be any more clear than that. I put my money, and efforts, where my mouth is. I believe I have proved that normal products are much more capable than folks will give credit for. I surely agree that this is not to be an undertaking to be done blindly; one must have a good plan and monitor closely. Not everyone will be as successful as this; some more and some less. I do NOT advocate this be done without validation. Here's what I want folks to take away from this ... BITOG is a wonderful place and is owned by a great lady. But of late, it's become a site where brand bigotry and rhetorical mythology seem to rule the daily conversations. What I long for is folks who dream up a hypothesis, develop a testing plan, implement the plan with minimal variances, and then make conclusions only AFTER the data speaks. Jim is doing that with his filter experiments. 2010_FX4 is doing that with his long UOA tracking. I encourage each of you to analyze your postion, and then make an action plan. Espousing mythology is not nearly as helpful as contributing real world testing data. If you want to make a claim, then please back it up with real world data to support your position. I think it's clear I've fully proven my claims to be true.
 

cp3

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2,645
Location
Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
Thanx for sharing dn3! Looks good! Have fun car shopping!! demarpaint, I think anywhere unfiltered air can get into the engine will allow Si in. I had a PCV tube on the G6 where the fitting on the end became a bit loose where it enters the valve cover. A bit of tape to tighten the fit seemed to help bring the Si down. Na too but that's up here where they try to repave the roads in the winter with salt!
 

cp3

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2,645
Location
Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: Brybo86
big jump in wear between 230k to 240k... unless the puro classic was impressing us by removing Iron?
Not really, 0.003 vs 0.0034 PPM/mile or about 13% increase.
 
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7,768
Location
Mahzurrah!
Sure would like to see inside that thing before it goes away. You got your use out of it. Our kids are grown or soon to be but we still bought another van, they are just so darn handy when you're used to having one. When we were in buying it there was an older couple in buying one too, the salesmen said lots of retired couples end up buying minivans as they want to traval and also haul the grandkids around from time to time.
 
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