Spotted an old diesel Benz this am . . .

[Benzadmiral]

. . . on my way to work from a private owner. It's the famous W123 model, 248,000 miles, light metallic green exterior, black cloth interior (with a towel across the back seat, which might mean repairs are needed). The card says it's a 1984 300D, but MB, I believe, no longer sold the non-turbo 300 in N. America after 1981 -- an '84 300D non-turbodiesel would have to be a Euro car, or the seller is misrepresenting a 1981 as an '84, or he's mistaken. The bumpers are small enough to say "Euro," though. The body looks good.

The guy wants $4000 obo.

Now I'm not in the mood (read: financial position) for a project car, a restoration, or anything but a fun beater. My regular mechanic still works on these, says right out they are tanks -- which I know, as I had a gas-engine 280CE coupe and for a while drove a 300D Turbo sedan. And naturally I'd have it checked out.

My concerns are the engine, transmission, and the A/C. I know the first two tend to be solid on these cars if they've been cared for. Would I have to find R-12 Freon if the A/C hasn't been converted to R-134a? If it has, how well does the A/C work? And does $3000 or $3200 sound like a fair price if the car is as well-sorted as I hope?

Oh, and what kind of MPG can I reasonably expect?

 

[typ901]

go look at benzworld.org. Post the question on the W123 forum. If you are looking at an older M-B for a fun beater good luck, maintenance is not cheap, and is required as scheduled in the service manual. And to me the price seems pretty steep for what you are getting, even though diesel cars are always more$$ to purchase.

 

[mcrn]

Hi Benz. I used to have an 83 240D that I had converted to R-12. The A/C was ice cold but was never reliable for me. But when it worked it worked great. I do not know if the reliability was effected by the conversion? The Vacuum system and A/C kept me at my mechanics shop often. If I knew what I know now then I would work on it myself a lot of the time so you could save money there. As im sure you know parts are not cheap but not really that bad. Good cars for me outside of the Vacuum and A/C system. As for price I think it sounds a little high but not really bad. I think you can tell if its euro or not by the bumpers like you mentioned and the dash......if its the metric system or not. I know you know a lot about these cars. Anyway I can help please ask. I know a little about them. My mom owned an 80 300SD and my dad had an 82 300TD. Tanks for sure.

 

[JHZR2]

R12 is the way to go on these cars. I've done 134a, but it's not the best. Likely has an R4 GM compressor which is weak but cheap.

ATs are vacuum controlled, so simple... But you need to know what you're doing to adjust. Longevity is like any other AT, rebuilds likely start at 160k and up. I've had multiple with original AT at 230k+.

Cloth seats would indicate euro - us models were usually mb Tex or sometimes leather. Does it have hubcaps?

Parts are no more $$ than any other mfr. Maintenance is no more than any other vehicle of that timeframe, other than perhaps the need to adjust valves every 15-20k.

 

[JHZR2]

$3000 for 250k is a lot unless the body is flawless with original paint. It will go a lot longer, but the key to these cars is rust, especially in the hood hinge pockets, jackpoints, and trunk side pockets under the plastic liners.

 

[Benzadmiral]

Yes, as a matter of fact, it does have the painted hubcaps, same as body color -- which makes me think it's older than '84 or is the Euro model. As I recall from my Euro 280CE, parts were often harder to find than for the U.S. models.

Well, maybe I'll give the owner a call. If everything on it works right, and my regular shop gives it a thumbs-up, then we'll see. Still, it would be kind of fun to drive a Benz again. If it gets good fuel mileage and the A/C blows cold, I could use it for my 20-mile daily commute. . . .

ETA: Just remembered that the door lock buttons were up when I looked it over this morning. No sane human leaves his car unlocked in New Orleans, esp. in Uptown. This could mean that there are vacuum problems with the locks, huh?

 

[JHZR2]

Sure could. Not hard to troubleshoot though because the carpets pull up so easy.

Does it have manual climate control? All us models had ACC at that point...

 

[mahansm]

I had an '82 300D for a number of years. 300D is correct designation. The engine was turbocharged from '82 through end of production in '85. If the engine is taken care of properly (oil changes, filter changes, clean fuel, valve adjustments every 15K, timing chain every 100K) it should be fine. Transmissions last about 150K miles in this car.

If you convert the AC to R134A it will be somewhat weak. This means that in Florida heat, idling in traffic, the air coming out of the vents may not be really cold.

This car has the mono valve instead of the somewhat notorious MB AC servo.

Electronic weak points include cruise control module and AC control modules (resoldering will often fix).

Price seems high for a car this old. Maintenance records and an inspection by a good mechanic at minimum before purchase. Few cars are more expensive than a cheap Benz.

Year will be on a decal under the hood on the radiator frame.

Expect about 24 MPG on #2 Diesel. Door lock servos tend to fail leaving one or more doors unlocked; fairly cheap fix (replacement servo was about $30 and you can replace the diaphragms for much less). If the vacuum system is disconnected you can lock/unlock all doors individually.

Steve

 

[hattaresguy]

82-85 were turbo's, the 85's were slightly different in regards to gearing.

Not sure how it got the cloth interior you would have to research that a bit.

Great cars, can't say enough about them, OTOH its a 30 year old car don't buy it if you don't want a project.

If its a Euro car the vin will start with WDB123XXXX

 

[Benzadmiral]

Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
. . . Great cars, can't say enough about them, OTOH its a 30 year old car don't buy it if you don't want a project.

Oh, I know there'll be things to fix up. I just don't want something that's got to sit in a garage (which I don't have) or at the shop instead of being driveable. As long as it starts, steers right, stops as needed, keeps me cool (a MAJOR requirement), and lets me climb the bridge in the morning and evening, that's all I ask right now.

Is it still possible to get R-12 Freon, though? About 9 years ago I had the A/C recharged in my W126, and R-12 was pricey even then. Can a shop even get them now?

If the vacuum issue only affects the door locks, I can lock them individually. But it could affect the transmission, no?

 

[JHZR2]

My 82 turbo cd yields 28-29 mpg consistently. I'd imagine an NA would do slightly better.

R 12 is available and has come down in price quite a bit.

Bad vacuum can effect transmission shifting and shutoff, also some airflow control.

Monovalve is no big deal. Thd AC/Climate circuit board sometimes acts up, but generally they just get slow. Thus why I was asking about manual climate. A euro car may have the manual system like us 240D cars.

 

[Benzadmiral]

I'm confident that Kevin, my long-time Benz expert (he kept my 420SEL and C230 each running nicely), can handle anything that might come up. The question is, will I want to spend that much!!??

An NA diesel would only have about 80 hp. I'll need to floor it and downshift to get the full power out of the engine if I'm accelerating to highway speed, or keeping up with traffic to climb our bridge, right?

I'll write down the guy's phone number tomorrow morning on the way in, and give him a call. It'd be cool even if all I do is test-drive it.

 

[JHZR2]

They are geared different. My 240d while not fast, is no slouch.

I'd be more concerned with noise at 65 and above.

 

[hattaresguy]

Shouldn't be to bad, I drove 300GD last year with a NA 603 which had about 80-90 hp and it was a total dog. But the G also has a ton on the W123.

Personally though I like turbo diesels, a turbo charged 603/606 will sail along at 100 all day long quite happily.

 

[The_Jeff]

I had a 240D. If your 300D was imported grey market there should be a cute little badge on the door pillar. I think also US spec cars by about then had a "soot trap" catalytic converter type thing that everyone just ripped off and straight piped. Can't hurt to look for it. And look for the emissions label under the hood. And the turbo.

$4k is steep. Take it for a nice drive up to highway speed and see if the rubber weather stripping around the doors is all dried out. Though these are "great benzes" they are also workaday entry level models and mostly owned by cheap professor/ hippie types, not yuppies any more.

Funky note: You have to have the (drivers) door latched to use the locks. I was reefing on mine until I figured this interlock out. And the "ignition key" (technically, steering lock) has to be turned all the way off and partially pulled out before it will turn to "start" again. As you likely know, the engine should turn off when the key turns off (vacuum) with the door locks in any position.

Check the rocker panel jack holes for rust. I'd just grab the factory jack and start lifting in the seller's driveway. See if he'll tell you to stop.

 

[JHZR2]

Only CA cars had the trap oxidizer... Different air filter and underhood setup than you see on any run of the mill OM 616/617.

 

[artificialist]

R12 isn't easy to find at auto repair shops.

However, it is cheap to buy a few cans from a flea market and charge the system yourself. If the car has a expansion valve type A/C, there is a likely sight glass somewhere in the AC system. Add R-12 until there are no bubbles visible.

It has been said that with an upgraded condenser, evaporator, and cooling fans, an R-134A conversion will work well.

Check underhood to see if the car was ever filled with R-134a.

 

[JHZR2]

Not on the r4 compressors in these cars. If a new one is swapped then OK...

But upgrading the whole system is a chore.

Multiple shops by me have r12 and it is no problem to have them work on the system...

A well done 134a retrofit will work well, I have one in my 91 318i. But having had one myself as well as reading of many others', I wouldn't recommend it on a w123.

 

[Benzadmiral]

It may be that the whole issue is, well, non. The lady called me back, and was quite pleasant and upfront about the fact that the blower is not working. That in this climate would sour a test drive right there.

As I dimly recall, blower repair/replacement on W123s is tough labor-wise? Wasn't it as if MB manufactured the blower motor and cage, and then built the rest of the car around it?

 

[hattaresguy]

Not really if its like the W126 its right behind the glove box, takes about 10 minutes to get out.

If that's enough to scare you out of an old car, don't buy it you won't enjoy the experience.