Spark Plugs! - This belongs in the oil forums!

[KrisZ]

About the antiseize. This point was brought up on another antiseize debate, but never answered: NGK's argument for not using anti-seize in spark plugs is the risk of over tightening, fine, but wouldn't that same risk be present on the non-coated plugs? If so, why aren't they addressing the risk of over tightening the non-plated plugs in their bulletin?

 

[Gokhan]

When you put lubricant on the threads, it greatly reduces the friction. What stops a bolt from being tightened further is the friction. When you lubricate the threads, you will keep turning and turning and turning the spark plug, which will keep twisting and twisting and twisting, as it will take you much longer (many more rotations) to reach the recommended torque because of the reduced friction. The gasket will be completely flattened and the threads will start stretching from all the extra twisting. This could result in breakage even with the recommended torque. Torque recommendations are for dry threads.

However, if you tighten it to the recommended angle (not the recommended torque), you will still be fine. It will take much less torque to reach the recommended angle if you lubricate the threads. Again, there is no reason to lubricate the threads if you are using new, plated spark plugs.

This applies to bolts in general. Only lubricate a bolt if you are worried about corrosion and if you do so, use much less torque than the recommended and great caution.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
About the antiseize. This point was brought up on another antiseize debate, but never answered: NGK's argument for not using anti-seize in spark plugs is the risk of over tightening, fine, but wouldn't that same risk be present on the non-coated plugs? If so, why aren't they addressing the risk of over tightening the non-plated plugs in their bulletin?

I don't think Nippondenso, NGK, or any other decent company makes nonplated spark plugs.

For reusing old spark plugs with their threads lubricated, they should be tightened to the correct angle (not the correct torque) specified for the used spark plug. Note that the correct angle for the used spark plug is much smaller than for the new spark plug for gasket-type spark plugs and equal to for the new spark plug for taper-seat spark plugs. See the Nippondenso table above. It's only 1/12 turns for used gasket-type spark plugs and 1/16 turns for used taper-seat plugs. The torque needed will be much less than specified for dry threads because of the friction reduction provided by the lubricant.

 

[KB2008X]

Gokhan, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using anti-seize on spark plug threads when it is done in the right situation and with knowledge of how to use it. I've used it successfully for decades with zero problems. Zero. And there are other legitimate automotive uses for anti-seize.

It sounds like maybe you've had trouble using it before ?

As for penetrating fluid, there are some situations that you'll encounter when changing spark plugs when it is essential to getting a job done correctly, the first time.

There is nothing inherently bad about penetrating oil or anti-seize.

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: KB2008X
Gokhan, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using anti-seize on spark plug threads when it is done in the right situation and with knowledge of how to use it. I've used it successfully for decades with zero problems. Zero. And there are other legitimate automotive uses for anti-seize.

It sounds like maybe you've had trouble using it before ?

As for penetrating fluid, there are some situations that you'll encounter when changing spark plugs when it is essential to getting a job done correctly, the first time.

There is nothing inherently bad about penetrating oil or anti-seize.



I have always used anti-seize on plugs that are used in aluminum heads. And, have NEVER had a problem.
I have also used Kroil when changing plugs on a few 3 valve 5.4 engines.

 

[KB2008X]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
About the antiseize. This point was brought up on another antiseize debate, but never answered: NGK's argument for not using anti-seize in spark plugs is the risk of over tightening, fine, but wouldn't that same risk be present on the non-coated plugs? If so, why aren't they addressing the risk of over tightening the non-plated plugs in their bulletin?




The problem in general with any thread lubricant is that it can lead to over-tightening of any threaded fastener. The specific issue with spark plugs is primarily regarding spark plugs in aluminum cylinder heads. It's easy for someone that doesn't know what they are doing to over-tighten a spark plug when using a thread lubricant and damage the threads in the aluminum head. The potential for damaging the threads exists regardless of what type of plug is used or whatever metal treatment the plug received.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Originally Posted By: KB2008X
Gokhan, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using anti-seize on spark plug threads when it is done in the right situation and with knowledge of how to use it. I've used it successfully for decades with zero problems. Zero. And there are other legitimate automotive uses for anti-seize.

It sounds like maybe you've had trouble using it before ?

As for penetrating fluid, there are some situations that you'll encounter when changing spark plugs when it is essential to getting a job done correctly, the first time.

There is nothing inherently bad about penetrating oil or anti-seize.



I have always used anti-seize on plugs that are used in aluminum heads. And, have NEVER had a problem.
I have also used Kroil when changing plugs on a few 3 valve 5.4 engines.

Yes, we've discussed this in-depth here with good references (pictures) above. Conclusions:

(1) Antiseize or other lubricant is not necessary at all with new, plated plugs, even for aluminum heads.
(2) For used plugs or rare nonplated plugs, use a lubricant. However, follow the angle spec, not the torque spec, for tightening when using a lubricant, as the recommended torque will result in severe overtightening due to reduced friction.
(3) Penetrating oil shouldn't be necessary if the spark plug was installed correctly with the proper angle (or torque for dry threads).

My engine, like most modern engines, has an aluminum head. Long time ago when I did my first spark-plug replacement, I had used oil, which resulted in overtightening but thankfully no damage. Ever since then I did dozens of spark-plug jobs and never used a lubricant and had a perfect result every time. I've used mostly Nippondenso plugs and some NGK plugs in the distant past.

 

[TFB1]

BAH... Advertising to the uneducated masses, if NGK plugs are so fragile they twist off with a little anti-seize, I'll never buy them...

BTW Trick Flow recommends a light amount of oil on the plugs in their heads...

 

[rw19]

The germans have a few engines with 2 plugs per cylinders and they are V8s so yeah your looking at around 160 for the plugs.

And keep laughing guys I feel like its cheap insurance changing the oil after the plugs. I just feel guilty training my 0w 20 AFE that only has 4k on it.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: TFB1
BAH... Advertising to the uneducated masses, if NGK plugs are so fragile they twist off with a little anti-seize, I'll never buy them...

Agreed. One doesn't have to tighten them until the ratchet breaks. Really, spark plugs don't have to be that tight at all. I've done them with lube, without lube, with anti-seize, without, it's not exactly rocket science. This thread is a little much, even for BITOG.

How about we discuss indexing the plugs, too?

 

[BlueOvalFitter]

Originally Posted By: Garak
This thread is a little much, even for BITOG.

How about we discuss indexing the plugs, too?

1) I agree.
2) I used to index my plugs when I was racing.
3) One Filter, One OCI!

 

[rw19]

if i had a dyno i would totally index.

 

[SteveSRT8]

In the old daze indexing was mandatory. Weak ignition current and poor head designs were the primary reason it helped.

Modern cars have such strong ignitions they can practically spark off a pine log! Add to that dramatically improved cylinder head design, more accurate fueling, exotic plug materials, variable cam timing, etc., and you can see that indexing is unlikely to do much for a modern car anymore.

And note that every new gen Hemi from Chrysler has 2 plugs per cylinder too. It is NOT some kind of technical advantage, it is actually a band aid for emissions...

 

[KB2008X]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
Originally Posted By: KB2008X
Gokhan, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using anti-seize on spark plug threads when it is done in the right situation and with knowledge of how to use it. I've used it successfully for decades with zero problems. Zero. And there are other legitimate automotive uses for anti-seize.

It sounds like maybe you've had trouble using it before ?

As for penetrating fluid, there are some situations that you'll encounter when changing spark plugs when it is essential to getting a job done correctly, the first time.

There is nothing inherently bad about penetrating oil or anti-seize.



I have always used anti-seize on plugs that are used in aluminum heads. And, have NEVER had a problem.
I have also used Kroil when changing plugs on a few 3 valve 5.4 engines.

Yes, we've discussed this in-depth here with good references (pictures) above. Conclusions:

(1) Antiseize or other lubricant is not necessary at all with new, plated plugs, even for aluminum heads.
(2) For used plugs or rare nonplated plugs, use a lubricant. However, follow the angle spec, not the torque spec, for tightening when using a lubricant, as the recommended torque will result in severe overtightening due to reduced friction.
(3) Penetrating oil shouldn't be necessary if the spark plug was installed correctly with the proper angle (or torque for dry threads).

My engine, like most modern engines, has an aluminum head. Long time ago when I did my first spark-plug replacement, I had used oil, which resulted in overtightening but thankfully no damage. Ever since then I did dozens of spark-plug jobs and never used a lubricant and had a perfect result every time. I've used mostly Nippondenso plugs and some NGK plugs in the distant past.


Dozens of spark plug jobs ? Well, if you've done dozens...

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: KB2008X
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
About the antiseize. This point was brought up on another antiseize debate, but never answered: NGK's argument for not using anti-seize in spark plugs is the risk of over tightening, fine, but wouldn't that same risk be present on the non-coated plugs? If so, why aren't they addressing the risk of over tightening the non-plated plugs in their bulletin?




...The potential for damaging the threads exists regardless of what type of plug is used or whatever metal treatment the plug received.


That was my point in asking the question in the first place. This bulleting was used many times before as some sort of proof that one should never use anti-seize when NGK themselves say anti-seize can be used, but they never caution to lower the torque spec and by how much.

Everybody here using anti-seize if fully aware that the torque has to be lowered or the turn angle used for safe spark plug installation.

 

[CarbonSteel]

Originally Posted By: BlueOvalFitter
I usually tighten mine until I see the back end of the car/truck just starting to move sideways.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: KB2008X
Dozens of spark plug jobs ? Well, if you've done dozens...

... and the rest of the sentence?

 

[Gokhan]

I also like not using any oil because it keeps the aluminum holes nice, shiny, and clean. I use brake cleaner before I remove the plugs to clean the dirt, and after I remove them, I carefully wipe around the holes with a shop towel soaked in brake cleaner.

If you don't use any oil, you can also tell if your valve-stem oil seals are good or not by looking at the threads. If the threads are dry, they are good; if they are wet, they are not. If you use oil, there is no way to tell.

If the OP really worries about the penetrating oil getting into the cylinders, he could always pour a small amount of engine oil through the holes before installing the new plugs to ensure good cylinder lubrication when he starts the engine for the first time.

My engine has an aluminum head and I've never had problem removing properly installed plugs when installed and removed without oil. If you overtighten them, it's a different story: You might end up having to remove the cylinder head to take the plug out.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

When tightening a spark plug, or anything, you should be able to feel it stretch. When it starts to stretch, it's tight.

The stretch will happen at a much lower torque than on an unlubricated thread.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Very good tech bulletin, Ramblejam, thanks. Few people probably buy really cheap spark plugs without plating or reuse their old spark plugs after cleaning and regapping them. For those, it could be a good idea to use an antiseize lubricant; otherwise, it's not:

Also - this picture has way too much anti seize on the threads on the sparkplugs at the bottom.