Some info on gasoline brands...

[fuel tanker man]

Good questions.

Some stations do not have dispensers with the capability of blending the premium and regular, so at these stations the midgrade is blended as it is loaded onto the tanker truck.

Usually, if you see a blue colored ground tank cover that's a midgrade gasoline tank, which means that the pumps don't blend it; it's blended as it is loaded onto the truck.

Some stations may have different color codes but the standard seems to be white caps for regular unleaded, blue for midgrade, and red for premium. Yellow would be diesel. But as mentioned, some stations may be different. You might look in some semi-conspicuous place on the station's front window or near where the ground tanks are located to see a tank color chart.

If a station which blends midgrade at the pump runs out of regular--as far as my experience goes--the dispenser will not pump pure premium alone. This might, however, depend on the type of blending dispenser being used, so don't quote me on that.

We did have a driver screw up once and he unloaded 8700 gallons of premium into the regular no lead tank. The station decided to bill the difference to the transportation company and they went on and sold the gasoline at regular no-lead prices.

And yes, I filled up all of my vehicles that afternoon.

Dan

 

[Drew99GT]

Tanker, what a great post!!!! I have a couple stupid questions though for ya (I'm a major amateur when it comes to understanding the business infrastructure of the gasoline industry). Do you work for a company that markets/retails gasoline, or do you work for a company that simply transports gasoline to various retailors? Also, with regards to refineries and terminals. Are gasoline terminals owned by the various refineries, or are they independently owned be the marketers of gasoline (Shell/Texaco etc.)? What I'm getting at, is whether a terminal has holding tanks for various marketers of gasoline, or do they simply hold gas for and are owned by one single marketer of gasoline. Could you maybe summarize the business infrastructure of the gasoline industry from refinement to pipeline distribution, to terminal, and ultimetaly, to the gas station? Thanks

 

[boxcartommie22]

chevron bought the lubrication division of texaco and shell bought the fuel division texaco and there is no relation between the two division's

 

[Greaser]

W

 

[Greaser]

What about ethanol..if too much is put in what will happen

 

[fuel tanker man]

I don't know anything about ethanol. None of the oil terminals I'm familiar with inject ethanol.

As for the other questions. I work for a large truck diesel retailer, and we also sell gasoline.

The oil terminals (where we load the trucks) are owned by different sized companies. Some are owned by the big oil companies, and others are owned by independent companies. Motiva (the Shell/Texaco merge) owns three termainals in the area I work in. Two of these used to be Shell Oil Company terminals, the other was a Texaco terminal. Now all three are owned by Motiva Enterprises.

Some terminals are owned by companies that just distribute and/or store product from the pipeline for the majors. Transmontaigne (yeah, that's a mouthful

) handles fuel for BP/Amoco in Greensboro, NC. They also market "plain vanilla" products (gas, low sulfur diesel) to fuel retailers that shop rack price of the day. Another such terminal is Apex in Greensboro, NC. We have loaded both diesel and gasoline from them when their rack prices are good. This type of terminal makes money either by handling petroleum for the major marketers, or by buying it off the pipeline and reselling it as their own generic. Remember, the gasoline and diesel are pretty much all the same as the product comes up the pipeline. Propreitary additives are injected when the "branded" product goes onto the tanker truck.

Transmontaigne operates two terminals in the Roanoke, Virginia area. One used to be a Chevron terminal (owned by Chevron) but was sold by Chevron to Transmontaigne. This terminal still carries the Chevron branded products, but I don't believe Chevron owns any interest in the terminal any longer.

Here is a map of the Colonial Pipeline. It feeds the oil terminals in the areas I haul petroleum products from.

http://www.colpipe.com/ab_map.asp

And this is the Plantation Pipeline, another source for fuel in the Eastern US.

http://www.plantation-ppl.com/

Dan

 

[DNaatz]

Thanks BTW for this useful info as I occasional scan through this additive section being in the middle of an ARX test and happened to spot this.

So I see a couple recent posts since Sept 4; the one on ethanol which we are stuck with in MN perhaps is not that common nationwide. However, back to the 93,87 and midgrade 89 questions...does anyone know how some of these midwestern brands like Casey's (I believe also in Iowa) and Kwiktrip (big in SE MN and all over Wisconsin) do this same price deal for both 87 and 89 octane?
I have a new Chrysler 300M which recommends 89 for full power, but is ok @ 87 per owners manual and seems to run just fine on 87. However these certain stations charge the same for both grades, current $1.78 here in SE MN.

What kinda gimmick is this?

 

[MNgopher]

As posted, in some states, the 89 is made by adding ethanol to 87 octane, and walah, 89 octane. The only difference is the ethanol content and associated lower fuel mileage, but higher octane at a similar price.

Of course, that isn't the case in MN, where all the gas has 10% ethanol in it, regardless of grade (except select non-oxy premium retailers).

The reality is the rack price of mid grade and regular is generally within 2 cents per gallon of each other. Some retailers use it as a bit of a loss leader to bring more folks in the door, selling midgrade at the same price. Seems to work on a lot of people tooo...

 

[Drew99GT]

In some places I believe, like Iowa, the increase the octane rating of mid-grade (89 octane) by adding ethenol, which is cheaper than the other compounds used to increase octane rating.

 

[MarkC]

quote:

---

Originally posted by boxcartommie22:
chevron bought the lubrication division of texaco and shell bought the fuel division texaco and there is no relation between the two division's

---

I think that's incorrect. My understanding is that Chevron owns all of Texaco, but agreed to allow Shell to use the Texaco brand to sell gas until 2004 or 2005, at which time it becomes Chevron.

 

[Ken2]

-quote-
SAN RAMON, Calif., Jul. 1, 2004 -- ChevronTexaco Products Company will today begin marketing gasoline under the Texaco retail brand and expects to be supplying more than 1000 locations in Southern and Eastern states of the United States by the end of the year.

As part of its 2001 merger agreement, ChevronTexaco agreed to license the Texaco retail brand to Shell in the United States for the marketing and sale of gasoline on an exclusive basis until July 1, 2004. The companies will now share the brand rights for a two-year transition period until ChevronTexaco regains exclusive rights to the Texaco brand in the United States on July 1, 2006.
-end quote-
http://www.chevrontexaco.com/news/press/2004/2004-07-01_1.asp

So, it looks like, depending on your location, Texaco can be either Motiva (Shell & Saudi Refining) or ChevronTexaco until 2006.


Ken

 

[GT Mike]

Regarding the addition of ethanol to 87 octane gasoline as an octane improver...
After doing several weeks (months?) of scans on my car which seems to have extremely sensitive knock sensors, I've noticed absolutely no difference in the amount of Knock Retard (amount of total timing that's being pulled relative to the severity of the knock being "heard" by the knock sensors) comparing 87 to 89 with ethanol. As a general rule, Kwik Trip fuel produced the most KR in both 87 and 89 octane ratings with similar numbers for both grades.
Express (U.S. Oil) stations also have ethanol blended fuels, and I tested their 91 octane Advantage + and it showed only a slight reduction in KR compared to my baseline fuel which is Mobil 87 with no ethanol. Their 89 octane with ethanol also showed me KR numbers similar to those of a non-ethanol 87. The non-ethanol midgrade and premium fuels (with their respective increased cost) did the most effective job at reducing or in some cases eliminating KR from my scans. Shell V-Power 93 was the best at this, yeilding 0° KR in all driving conditions. My scanner also has a mode called "ESC count" which counts how many times the knock sensors detected measurable knock. I've only been able to get a 0 on this with Shell, with Mobil and Amoco 93 octane coming in at a tie for 2nd place with very little.

So anyways, I said all that to say this... Ethanol may make a fuel look good "on paper", but in reality, offers very little advantage to running a lower octane rating without it.

As a side note, even though my car, a 1997 Pontiac Grand Prix 3800 V6 non-supercharged, calls for 87 octane in the owner's manual, maximum power can only be achieved by running premium fuel, since this is the only way maximum spark advance can be delivered without it being held back by the engine's knock sensors.
So not always is the theory correct about running the lowest octane rating you can run without knock. My car will most likely never knock, but running regular gasoline in it will not allow you to experience all that it has to offer in terms of performance. In my car's case, running premium when regular is "good enough" would make a difference, and not just be blowing money out the tailpipe.
Of course, this difference only occurs at full throttle, an area most A to B commuters are rarely going to experience.

I'm tired...Did this post make any sense?

 

[Ken2]

Yep. Made sense.

Modern computer controlled engines with knock sensors will retard the spark to avoid spark knock, and the driver will almost never hear ping or knock. The exception is when deposits of hot carbon are causing the preignition, not the spark plug.

A couple of years ago "Car & Driver" magazine tested gasolines. They had cars where 87 octane was recommended and cars where high octane was recommended. On the dyno, the 87 octane cars running with high octane gasoline make no additional power that the dyno could measure. The high octane cars running 87 burned more gas so there was no net savings in fuel cost.


Ken

 

[Jelly]

Good post fuel tanker man!

 

[GT Mike]

quote:

---

Originally posted by DNaatz:
does anyone know how some of these midwestern brands like Casey's (I believe also in Iowa) and Kwiktrip (big in SE MN and all over Wisconsin) do this same price deal for both 87 and 89 octane?
I have a new Chrysler 300M which recommends 89 for full power, but is ok @ 87 per owners manual and seems to run just fine on 87. However these certain stations charge the same for both grades, current $1.78 here in SE MN.

What kinda gimmick is this? [/QB]

---

I was told it's to get people to run the ethanol blended fuel. Since the car-dumb American driving public still to this day equates octane rating with quality and/or performance, the fact that they can buy the "better" 89 octane mid-grade for the same price as "the cheap stuff" encourages its sale. If the midgrade 89 had 10% ethanol in it, but the price was your typical 10 cents a gallon higher than 87 like it is with a non-ethanol midgrade, people would still buy 87.

In IA, midgrade is most the time cheaper than 87.

I also was told that a tax subsidy helps keep the price down also to encourage the use of ethanol fuel.

For your Chrysler, I personally would run a non-ethanol 89 or if that's not an option, premium fuel if it contains ethanol. Ethanol is not at all a good octane booster...It makes the gas look good "on paper", but in reality, I found more measureable knock when scanning my car on 89 with ethanol then on 87 without. Since your engine is quite high compression, you'll only get maximum performance out of it when you can run with no knock retard. Eventually your car's PCM will learn the lesser advance curve, and your car's MPG and performance will suffer as a result.
Put this to the test...Fill up with premium (non-ethanol 93 preferred) when nearly empty. Disconnect your battery for a couple hours, then reconnect it and take the car out for a drive. I can almost guarantee you'll feel a noticeable difference in improved performance.

 

[OMCWankel]

Great post from fuel tanker man! Here is another point to consider: All products in the liquid pipeline flow in batches. You may have jetA followed by gasoline followed by heating oil. At the beginning, and end, of every batch is a "transition zone". This is mixed product (there is no blocker that maintains seperation) and will go in the tank that will have the least effect on that tank's product. This is all controled by the tank farm operators. It is safe to say that no product at the tank farm is exactly the way it came out of the refinery. I agree with fuel tanker man, buy gas at high turnover stations. I add my own additive package (FP), as I then know what I am getting for my dollars spent.

 

[tenderloin]

If it is as you say it is, then take pictures, do interviews, get statements and the whole lid will be blown off the oil/gasoline companies.

There has to be a reason this has not raised a big stink

We are talking billions of dollars in customer lawsuits

 

[cit1991]

Fuel Tanker Man, good explanation of how gasoline distribution works.

The only exception would be for refining towns (Houston, Corpus Christi, Baton Rouge, New Orleans, etc.) or any town with a refinery nearby. Most refineries have a distribution terminal located onsite for retailers of that brand. Some retailers have a blending terminal located near the refineries for that region. In that case, quality can matter, and gasoline can vary by brand.

I remember a specific case, where I worked in the attached chemical plant next to a major oil company's refinery back in the early 90's. We operated an olefins plant, and had an entire tank (like 100,000 gallons) of steam cracked naphtha (gasoline blendstock) that was off spec on durene (a gum former). Our refinery would not take it...even though they could blend it down in their huge gasoline pool. It didn't meet their specs, and they said no. We would have had to rerun it at great expense. Then our product coordinator came in to the morning meeting a few days later, and said the Citgo blending terminal across the river would take it. They do much less volume then our refinery.

Anybody who bought Citgo gas that month in that region got a blend of fuel considered off-spec by a major producer/marketer. It never went through an interstate pipeline.

 

[OMCWankel]

tenderloin, there is a reason that this is not a major issue.

First, the dilution ratio is rather large. In a 100,000 gallon tank, less than 1000 gallons will be transition zone product. You would need a laboratory test to determine if there was any deviation, and then it would probably still pass API specs.

Second, API specs are delibratly on the loose side. You are talking about industrial processes that are performed on a massive scale. Tight control of these processes is not practical.

Third, separation of the products in the pipeline is not practical. There are many objects in the pipeline, like thermowells for temperature measurement, and turbine meters for flow and volume measurement. Round balls called "pigs" are used to remove crud from the pipe, and could be used to maintain separation of products, but are used only between measurement/control points to avoid the objects in the pipe.

Fourth, is it really an issue? Things in gasoline that affect IC engines are controlled, like the burn speed (octane). Detergents are placed in gasoline to control the effects from impurities and contamination that invade the product.

Like fuel tanker man said, go to the high volume stations, use additional detergents if you want to be safe, and be happy! Gasoline quality today is much better than just 10 years ago, and additional improvements (like reduced sulfur) are coming soon.

 

[Kestas]

About a week ago, the history channel had a program on gasoline distribution. Very informative. They even talked about the separators (pigs) used in the pipelines and the transition zone. They said that fuel was set aside and sold to facilities that can burn "mix" fuel... probably power generating facilities or heating facilities I imagine.

They also mentioned that some terminals are located near the refinery and have dedicated lines where no mixing is needed.

[ March 23, 2005, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: Kestas ]