Some CR data on worse trouble spots,
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I subscribed for one year a while ago, and when I got the survey and saw how vague the questions were and how they were worded, I cancelled my subscription and never read another issue.
If you read their issues from the 80's and before, they actually did good and indepth testing using equipment where they could actually measure the results. Now their "testing" is purely opinion and unscientific.
If you read their issues from the 80's and before, they actually did good and indepth testing using equipment where they could actually measure the results. Now their "testing" is purely opinion and unscientific.
Originally Posted By: John_K
My verification of CR's relative accuracy is in rebadges. For example, Honda rebadged that Isuzu thing as their SUV years ago and it uncharacteristically got a lot of black dots. I really doubt people said "well, usually I lie about problems with my Honda, but this is a rebadge so I won't lie about this one." It is an indicator that Honda is usually pretty good.
John
I noticed that one too. The other vehicle that stands out is the Pontiac Vibe, but not for blacks dots rather the absence of black dots.
My verification of CR's relative accuracy is in rebadges. For example, Honda rebadged that Isuzu thing as their SUV years ago and it uncharacteristically got a lot of black dots. I really doubt people said "well, usually I lie about problems with my Honda, but this is a rebadge so I won't lie about this one." It is an indicator that Honda is usually pretty good.
John
I noticed that one too. The other vehicle that stands out is the Pontiac Vibe, but not for blacks dots rather the absence of black dots.
Originally Posted By: TylerL
Originally Posted By: John_K
My verification of CR's relative accuracy is in rebadges. For example, Honda rebadged that Isuzu thing as their SUV years ago and it uncharacteristically got a lot of black dots. I really doubt people said "well, usually I lie about problems with my Honda, but this is a rebadge so I won't lie about this one." It is an indicator that Honda is usually pretty good.
John
I noticed that one too. The other vehicle that stands out is the Pontiac Vibe, but not for blacks dots rather the absence of black dots.
Well, I remember the GEO Prizm getting poor scores and the IDENTICAL Toyota model (built on the same line at the same NUMMI plant in CA) getting recommended scores. Go figure that out.
Originally Posted By: John_K
My verification of CR's relative accuracy is in rebadges. For example, Honda rebadged that Isuzu thing as their SUV years ago and it uncharacteristically got a lot of black dots. I really doubt people said "well, usually I lie about problems with my Honda, but this is a rebadge so I won't lie about this one." It is an indicator that Honda is usually pretty good.
John
I noticed that one too. The other vehicle that stands out is the Pontiac Vibe, but not for blacks dots rather the absence of black dots.
Well, I remember the GEO Prizm getting poor scores and the IDENTICAL Toyota model (built on the same line at the same NUMMI plant in CA) getting recommended scores. Go figure that out.
Bunch of bashing of Consumer Reports data. I don't go by it much either. But what I find interesting is their worst offender over 10 years in a certain spot is 15-36% in one area. This means the majority do not have any problems.
I think the fighting over reliability is pretty futile as the majority of cars live their lives with few repairs irregardless of brand.
I think the fighting over reliability is pretty futile as the majority of cars live their lives with few repairs irregardless of brand.
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Originally Posted By: TylerL
Originally Posted By: John_K
My verification of CR's relative accuracy is in rebadges. For example, Honda rebadged that Isuzu thing as their SUV years ago and it uncharacteristically got a lot of black dots. I really doubt people said "well, usually I lie about problems with my Honda, but this is a rebadge so I won't lie about this one." It is an indicator that Honda is usually pretty good.
John
I noticed that one too. The other vehicle that stands out is the Pontiac Vibe, but not for blacks dots rather the absence of black dots.
Well, I remember the GEO Prizm getting poor scores and the IDENTICAL Toyota model (built on the same line at the same NUMMI plant in CA) getting recommended scores. Go figure that out.
They are not identical.
The Prizm get's AC Delco alternators, compressors, and certainly a different dash, radio, etc when compared to the Corolla.
They share a basic body and drivetrain. But many of the interior parts and things that hang off the longblock are different for a Prizm compared to a Corolla.
So there are differences between the cars and it appears it makes a difference in the rating of the product.
Originally Posted By: TylerL
Originally Posted By: John_K
My verification of CR's relative accuracy is in rebadges. For example, Honda rebadged that Isuzu thing as their SUV years ago and it uncharacteristically got a lot of black dots. I really doubt people said "well, usually I lie about problems with my Honda, but this is a rebadge so I won't lie about this one." It is an indicator that Honda is usually pretty good.
John
I noticed that one too. The other vehicle that stands out is the Pontiac Vibe, but not for blacks dots rather the absence of black dots.
Well, I remember the GEO Prizm getting poor scores and the IDENTICAL Toyota model (built on the same line at the same NUMMI plant in CA) getting recommended scores. Go figure that out.
They are not identical.
The Prizm get's AC Delco alternators, compressors, and certainly a different dash, radio, etc when compared to the Corolla.
They share a basic body and drivetrain. But many of the interior parts and things that hang off the longblock are different for a Prizm compared to a Corolla.
So there are differences between the cars and it appears it makes a difference in the rating of the product.
Originally Posted By: javacontour
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Originally Posted By: TylerL
Originally Posted By: John_K
My verification of CR's relative accuracy is in rebadges. For example, Honda rebadged that Isuzu thing as their SUV years ago and it uncharacteristically got a lot of black dots. I really doubt people said "well, usually I lie about problems with my Honda, but this is a rebadge so I won't lie about this one." It is an indicator that Honda is usually pretty good.
John
I noticed that one too. The other vehicle that stands out is the Pontiac Vibe, but not for blacks dots rather the absence of black dots.
Well, I remember the GEO Prizm getting poor scores and the IDENTICAL Toyota model (built on the same line at the same NUMMI plant in CA) getting recommended scores. Go figure that out.
They are not identical.
The Prizm get's AC Delco alternators, compressors, and certainly a different dash, radio, etc when compared to the Corolla.
They share a basic body and drivetrain. But many of the interior parts and things that hang off the longblock are different for a Prizm compared to a Corolla.
So there are differences between the cars and it appears it makes a difference in the rating of the product.
I've been to NUMMI when they built these models for company business (training on the Toyota business model) and they are atleast 90% the same. The dash is different, but that's just the covering - the shell and mounting are all the same. I did not know the externals on the engine were different - that makes no sense to me. I have to look that up.
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Originally Posted By: TylerL
Originally Posted By: John_K
My verification of CR's relative accuracy is in rebadges. For example, Honda rebadged that Isuzu thing as their SUV years ago and it uncharacteristically got a lot of black dots. I really doubt people said "well, usually I lie about problems with my Honda, but this is a rebadge so I won't lie about this one." It is an indicator that Honda is usually pretty good.
John
I noticed that one too. The other vehicle that stands out is the Pontiac Vibe, but not for blacks dots rather the absence of black dots.
Well, I remember the GEO Prizm getting poor scores and the IDENTICAL Toyota model (built on the same line at the same NUMMI plant in CA) getting recommended scores. Go figure that out.
They are not identical.
The Prizm get's AC Delco alternators, compressors, and certainly a different dash, radio, etc when compared to the Corolla.
They share a basic body and drivetrain. But many of the interior parts and things that hang off the longblock are different for a Prizm compared to a Corolla.
So there are differences between the cars and it appears it makes a difference in the rating of the product.
I've been to NUMMI when they built these models for company business (training on the Toyota business model) and they are atleast 90% the same. The dash is different, but that's just the covering - the shell and mounting are all the same. I did not know the externals on the engine were different - that makes no sense to me. I have to look that up.
And I can't get bulbs in the bulb holders at either my Chevy dealership or Toyota. I can get the bare bulbs, but the IP bulbs are soldered into the holder, and that assy is not available at either brand, Chevy nor Toyota.
I know it makes no sense, but you can end up with Denso or Delco belt driven parts on either.
I suspect more Prizms have Delco parts, but some Corollas will as well. Like wise, you can end up with Denso parts on a Prizm as well. I think mine has a Denso A/C compressor, but a Delco alternator.
Probably has to do with JIT and what they have when a car comes down the line.
My compressor has not been replaced in 235K miles, but it's clutch was replaced. I don't know if the clutch went bad and took out the harmonic balancer or vice-versa, but the replacement clutch was replace with the balancer on the crank. My alternator was replaced at about 90K according to the original owners service records, FWIW.
I know it makes no sense, but you can end up with Denso or Delco belt driven parts on either.
I suspect more Prizms have Delco parts, but some Corollas will as well. Like wise, you can end up with Denso parts on a Prizm as well. I think mine has a Denso A/C compressor, but a Delco alternator.
Probably has to do with JIT and what they have when a car comes down the line.
My compressor has not been replaced in 235K miles, but it's clutch was replaced. I don't know if the clutch went bad and took out the harmonic balancer or vice-versa, but the replacement clutch was replace with the balancer on the crank. My alternator was replaced at about 90K according to the original owners service records, FWIW.
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Originally Posted By: bepperb
"the sample sizes are small"
Are you kidding? The 2006 survey (I have the book on my desk) drew 1.3 million vehicle reviews. So if they reviewed 100 models, that would be 13000 reviews for each model. They do 8 years, so that's 1625 reviews, on average, for the exact year and model car you're looking for. That's amazing. No matter how many friends you have that say x car is good or bad, it still won't be 1600 people!
Of course there is still bias in their results. Obviously, with any review they do they have a tendancy to exaggerate the difference between the best and worst models. And sure there is probably some bias in the readers submitting their reviews. On the other hand, I think the fact that Toyota has done so poorly the past few years shows that this probably isn't as big a factor as anti-cr people try to make it out to be.
1.3 million out of a total of 15-17 million cars produced worldwide is small. And if there is 13,000 surveys on every model that's still small given most models avg between 50-100k a year produced.
Yes, but a sample population that size would definitely be statistically valid. Data would not skew much in 13,000 samples. So I would say that the representation of the validity of the questions asked would be valid.
Originally Posted By: bepperb
"the sample sizes are small"
Are you kidding? The 2006 survey (I have the book on my desk) drew 1.3 million vehicle reviews. So if they reviewed 100 models, that would be 13000 reviews for each model. They do 8 years, so that's 1625 reviews, on average, for the exact year and model car you're looking for. That's amazing. No matter how many friends you have that say x car is good or bad, it still won't be 1600 people!
Of course there is still bias in their results. Obviously, with any review they do they have a tendancy to exaggerate the difference between the best and worst models. And sure there is probably some bias in the readers submitting their reviews. On the other hand, I think the fact that Toyota has done so poorly the past few years shows that this probably isn't as big a factor as anti-cr people try to make it out to be.
1.3 million out of a total of 15-17 million cars produced worldwide is small. And if there is 13,000 surveys on every model that's still small given most models avg between 50-100k a year produced.
Yes, but a sample population that size would definitely be statistically valid. Data would not skew much in 13,000 samples. So I would say that the representation of the validity of the questions asked would be valid.
Originally Posted By: javacontour
And I can't get bulbs in the bulb holders at either my Chevy dealership or Toyota. I can get the bare bulbs, but the IP bulbs are soldered into the holder, and that assy is not available at either brand, Chevy nor Toyota.
It's not the usual 194 bulb in a twist-in holder that fits into the PCB?
And I can't get bulbs in the bulb holders at either my Chevy dealership or Toyota. I can get the bare bulbs, but the IP bulbs are soldered into the holder, and that assy is not available at either brand, Chevy nor Toyota.
It's not the usual 194 bulb in a twist-in holder that fits into the PCB?
As has been mentioned here before, even though they were made on the same line, they were not identical. Alternators and other accessories were different, on earlier versions FI was on the Toyota, carb on the GM.
I don't consider CR surveys that vague, and they usually ask how much you spent for the various repairs, so that removes the subjective part in my mind. I support TrueDelta, but question how well they are doing in numbers. I suspect they are finding it more difficult to gather the data, I know they work hard at making it timely, as the CR takes too much time to gather. I made my previous post before reading all of the replies....
Originally Posted By: brianl703
Originally Posted By: javacontour
And I can't get bulbs in the bulb holders at either my Chevy dealership or Toyota. I can get the bare bulbs, but the IP bulbs are soldered into the holder, and that assy is not available at either brand, Chevy nor Toyota.
It's not the usual 194 bulb in a twist-in holder that fits into the PCB?
It's a 16X (I can't remember if it's like 162, 164, so same form factor as a 194, but smaller current draw), but it's soldered into the bulb holder and I've boogered up one of them trying to make it work, so it was relegated to the redline side of the tach where it's not really needed for now.
Originally Posted By: javacontour
And I can't get bulbs in the bulb holders at either my Chevy dealership or Toyota. I can get the bare bulbs, but the IP bulbs are soldered into the holder, and that assy is not available at either brand, Chevy nor Toyota.
It's not the usual 194 bulb in a twist-in holder that fits into the PCB?
It's a 16X (I can't remember if it's like 162, 164, so same form factor as a 194, but smaller current draw), but it's soldered into the bulb holder and I've boogered up one of them trying to make it work, so it was relegated to the redline side of the tach where it's not really needed for now.
What are the demographics of the CR subscriber base that support their auto rankings? Is it a accurate cross section of the US consumer? Or does it tend to gravitate to somewhat more white-collar crowd that's less mechanically inclined? Mostly white? Income levels? More liberal? More import-oriented? etc.
The fact that CR only uses their subscriber base biases the results to consumers that, well, read CR magazine.
The fact that CR only uses their subscriber base biases the results to consumers that, well, read CR magazine.
Or maybe a 158 bulb...
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Originally Posted By: bepperb
"the sample sizes are small"
Are you kidding? The 2006 survey (I have the book on my desk) drew 1.3 million vehicle reviews. So if they reviewed 100 models, that would be 13000 reviews for each model. They do 8 years, so that's 1625 reviews, on average, for the exact year and model car you're looking for. That's amazing. No matter how many friends you have that say x car is good or bad, it still won't be 1600 people!
Of course there is still bias in their results. Obviously, with any review they do they have a tendancy to exaggerate the difference between the best and worst models. And sure there is probably some bias in the readers submitting their reviews. On the other hand, I think the fact that Toyota has done so poorly the past few years shows that this probably isn't as big a factor as anti-cr people try to make it out to be.
1.3 million out of a total of 15-17 million cars produced worldwide is small. And if there is 13,000 surveys on every model that's still small given most models avg between 50-100k a year produced.
US Unemployment for a labor force of over 150 million is measured by a survey of sixty thousand people. I don't think the CR sample size is a problem
Originally Posted By: bepperb
"the sample sizes are small"
Are you kidding? The 2006 survey (I have the book on my desk) drew 1.3 million vehicle reviews. So if they reviewed 100 models, that would be 13000 reviews for each model. They do 8 years, so that's 1625 reviews, on average, for the exact year and model car you're looking for. That's amazing. No matter how many friends you have that say x car is good or bad, it still won't be 1600 people!
Of course there is still bias in their results. Obviously, with any review they do they have a tendancy to exaggerate the difference between the best and worst models. And sure there is probably some bias in the readers submitting their reviews. On the other hand, I think the fact that Toyota has done so poorly the past few years shows that this probably isn't as big a factor as anti-cr people try to make it out to be.
1.3 million out of a total of 15-17 million cars produced worldwide is small. And if there is 13,000 surveys on every model that's still small given most models avg between 50-100k a year produced.
US Unemployment for a labor force of over 150 million is measured by a survey of sixty thousand people. I don't think the CR sample size is a problem
Originally Posted By: javacontour
It's a 16X (I can't remember if it's like 162, 164, so same form factor as a 194, but smaller current draw), but it's soldered into the bulb holder and I've boogered up one of them trying to make it work, so it was relegated to the redline side of the tach where it's not really needed for now.
There are bulb holders that twist into the circuit board and fit a 194 bulb. Very similar to what the clock backlight on the Contour used. Would one of those work?
It's a 16X (I can't remember if it's like 162, 164, so same form factor as a 194, but smaller current draw), but it's soldered into the bulb holder and I've boogered up one of them trying to make it work, so it was relegated to the redline side of the tach where it's not really needed for now.
There are bulb holders that twist into the circuit board and fit a 194 bulb. Very similar to what the clock backlight on the Contour used. Would one of those work?
That T10-TW might work, it looks very similar. Hmmm may have to pull a bulb and head over to the Ford store...
Thanks!
Thanks!
Those T10-TWs are available here:
http://www.superbrightleds.com/mini-wedge.html
Otherwise, they should be the same as used on Ford instrument clusters, including in my 1988 Mustang GT.
http://www.superbrightleds.com/mini-wedge.html
Otherwise, they should be the same as used on Ford instrument clusters, including in my 1988 Mustang GT.
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