So what creates an oil's HT/HS number?

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I've been researching what oil to add to my free G-Oil to get the HT/HS number up from 3.2 to 3.5 for my Audi, and I've decided to go with 1 quart of RL 20W-50 to 6 quarts of G-Oil. It theoretically should be around 3.6 so that would suffice.

The question that I had then is why does an oil like RL 20W-50 have an HT/HS number of 6.0 and say M1 15W-50 only have 4.5? What is in the RL 50 weight that increases the HT/HS so much more? Thanks for the answers.
 
Firstly why do you feel the need to increase the HTHS in your sump? Do you plan an on-track event or towing? Remember you have Winter coming. HTHS is the measured viscosity (in cP) per ASTM D 5481, ASTM D 4741, CEC L-36-A-90, IP370, SAE J300 basically multipass shearing of very hot oil (150degC)through a nozzle simulating extreme shear due to pumping and hot engine pass though.
 
I'm out of warranty, but still want to follow the VW 502.00 oil spec as much as I can so looking to get the HT/HS at or above 3.5.

Free oil is free oil, but when I ran a full 7 quarts of the G-Oil I noticed some cam lobe polishing that I never saw before with an appropriate oil. So it appears to me that my particular car is in need of an oil with a high enough HT/HS oil.
 
The HTHS just has to be in a certain range to be in spec, for example 30 weights can all be in spec with an HTHS from 2.9 to 3.5 or 3.6, I forget exactly, but that's what your seeing with the Redline versus the Mobil.
 
Originally Posted By: threeputtpar
I've been researching what oil to add to my free G-Oil to get the HT/HS number up from 3.2 to 3.5 for my Audi, and I've decided to go with 1 quart of RL 20W-50 to 6 quarts of G-Oil. It theoretically should be around 3.6 so that would suffice.

The question that I had then is why does an oil like RL 20W-50 have an HT/HS number of 6.0 and say M1 15W-50 only have 4.5? What is in the RL 50 weight that increases the HT/HS so much more? Thanks for the answers.

HTHS refers to high-temperature, high-shear.

Shear here refers to the shear rate of the closely and rapidly sliding parts and is equal to the speed of the sliding parts divided by the thickness of the oil layer between them, the resulting unit being 1/second.

Shear rate = (Speed of the sliding parts) / (thickness of the oil layer between the sliding parts)

HTHS viscosity is a dynamic viscosity in that the viscosity measurements are performed at a shear rate of 1,000,000 1/second. At such a high-shear rate of 1 million inverse seconds, the viscosity-index improvers (VIIs), which are polymers, temporarily shear by having their microscopic shapes changed (regaining their molecular shapes at low shear, not to be confused with permanent shear of VII polymers, which results in a permanent loss of viscosity, even after the shear rate is reduced). The result is a lower viscosity than you would see if you did the same test at a low shear rate, such as when you would be measuring the kinematic viscosities at 40 C and 100 C. (Also note that the units for HTHS and kinematic viscosities are different, cSt and cP, respectively).

Therefore, for a given base oil, the more the VIIs added, the smaller will be the HTHS viscosity in comparison to the kinematic viscosity. Therefore, if you have two oils with the same 100 C kinematic viscosity, if one of them has a higher HTHS viscosity, it means that it has less viscosity-index improvers added in the mix. In this case, Redline 20W-50 has less viscosity-index improvers than Mobil 1 15W-50, which makes sense because for similar base oils, the more the SAE viscosity spread, the more is the concentration of the viscosity-index improvers.

As a footnote, the more the concentration of viscosity-index improvers, the more will be the permanent oil shear, as the permanent oil shear is determined by the concentration of VIIs that permanently shear (concentration of polymer molecules that permanently change their shapes), which depends on (1) the overall concentration of VIIs and (2) the quality of VIIs.
 
I'll try to take the next step then. When I first decided to add a booster oil to the G-Oil, I was going to use the M1 15W-50 because it was easy to source.

The math said that I would need 2 quarts to 5 quarts of G-Oil to get me to 3.57. If I were to run that mix 5k miles, would the VIIs of the M1 shear enough that I may be back down to the 3.2 virgin HTHS of the G-Oil? I'd think that any VIIs in the G-Oil would also shear, maybe putting me even lower than the 3.2 starting mark. Is that an accurate statement?
 
But any oil that met the spec of 3.5 HTHS would also be subject to shear, manufacturers know this, so I'd just consider your original HTHS and be done with it.

I believe Caterham said HTHS tends to shear at about half the rate of kinematic viscosity.
 
High Temperature High Shear (HTHS) is a measure of viscosity that unlike the simply kinematic viscosity measure is performed with the oil under pressure or stress. Consiquently this viscosity measure more closely replicates the conditions in an operating engine, particularly the bearings. HTHSV is sometimes referred to as bearing viscosity.

Different oil chemistries have different pressure-viscosity coefficients and in the case of the POE based Red Line oils they have one of the highest resulting in very high HTHSV spec's relative to their KV100 values.
The whole subjest was discussed in further detail inthe following thread:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2276634&page=all

Regarding you're blend, you'd be much better off going with RL 5W-50 and retaining the cold flow properties of a 5W oil. The HTHSV of their 5W-50 is still extremely high at 5.9cP but it has a much higher 185 VI. The end result will be a 5w30 3.5cP oil with a slightly higher VI.

The other question is whether you actually need to increase the viscosity of the G-Oil to almost a 40wt heading into winter?
If you had an oil pressure gauge you'd know since HTHSV correlates with OP. Something to consider.
 
No, the M1 15w50 won't shear enough to make the mixture drop below 3.2 HTHS, but I think your choice of Redline is better. M1 15w50 doesn't have the short-term shear stability of Redline 20w50. RL 20w50 does not suffer any short-term shear loss, while M1 15w50 has about 18%.

With cold weather coming on, you could also consider Redline 15w50 as a booster oil. It has HTHS of 5.8 and a higher VI, with short-term shear loss of 6%.
 
Yes, I wanted to go with RL 5W-50 as my first choice and 15W-50 as a second, but the one place I found that could get RL for me only orders once every six months. They did have 20W-50 on the shelf, and at $9 a quart I wasn't going to be picky.

With winter coming, I understand the comments about going to a lighter oil. I use the car for commuting only, and my drive is 35 minutes of 70mph in the morning and the same in the evening. Plenty of time for the oil to get to temp. Thanks for the help, everyone.

Woohoo, post #100!
 
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I just started using G-Oil in by son's 2001 Jetta 1.8t. Used oversized PuroMann L40316 filter increasing the capacity to 5.5 qts. Used Castrol 5w-50 found on sale to add HTHS. I was a bit cautious since it was summer and the first run with G-Oil. However, when I change it around Thanksgiving, I will be shooting for 1.5 qts Castrol 5w-50 to 5 qts G-Oil. Assuming the Castrol HTHS is 4.4-4.5, the resulting HTHS will be around 3.5. Mobil 15w-50 would yield nearly identical results.
 
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I would certainly do that, if it hadn't been for the polishing I saw on the cam lobes when I changed VC gaskets. Granted, that was during summer operation but my oil temp stays pretty consistant all year long. I have an oil temp gauge, but not a pressure one.
 
That polishing may be more at running an ILSAC mid/low saps oil (or THAT specific ilsac oil you ran) compared to an ACEA A3 B3/B4 regardless of HTHS - esp during summer. I might assume its polished over the nose. Did you measure the average lobe height loss with a dial indicator?
 
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If you know the oil temp's that's tells you something.
So what were/are your maximum oil temp's? To benefit from a 3.5cP oil you really need to occationally see oil temp's of at least 120C.

ARCO' is correct, valve train wear has more to do with low/mid-SAPS oils than viscosity.
 
Sorry, I didn't think to measure anything while I was in there. Just noticed it as I was placing the VC back on and thought "that looks different than last time".

My normal oil temps are between 200 and 210F, summer or winter. Many on the Audi specific forums say that that is lower than most see. I'd say the average is closer to 220F.

Because my oil temp is never above 210F, I figured that I has some cushion running at or a bit below the 3.5 spec number. I feel that when I do the next OC, the quart of RL will have sufficient AW additives.
 
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