So I was cruising the Ford lot today

[Gary Allan]

In the normal "reference of scale" (bear with me - I could be wording this wrong) diesels win hands down. In terms of your ongoing out of pocket expenses IF you were to drive a 3/4 ton gasser vs a diesel AND financed it, you're going to pay maybe $50-55 a month more ..while, driven the same mileage (let's say 12-15k a year, you'll easily pay FAR more in gasoline purchased over that same financed timeframe....probably to the tune of 60% more. Far outstripping the financed additional costs. You can get 20mpg+/- with the diesel ..about half (realistically) with the gasonline. The savings can be as much a $100-$200/month.

The only problem is that only a very few people have the need for a 3/4 to 1 ton pickup to get into that 'class' of fuel difference. If you're in a diesel Jetta vs. a gasoline Jetta ..you can't this that GROSS fuel usage to make it pay over the financed ownership. It only makes sense if you're going to buy a 3/4 ton pickup no matter what you do (it may not make sense to own one at all - but you want it anyway)

 

[ekpolk]

Gary: You lost me there. By my examination of the Chevy.com build-up pages, if you took two 2500HD trucks, alike in all details, except A has the 6.0L gasser and GM automatic and B has the Duramax diesel and Allison 6-spd, B is going to cost about $7500 more than A (only about $5300 more if you go Duramax with GM trans). If the buyers of each were financing, how would the payments be lower for B, the more expensive diesel?

EDIT: You're factoring in fuel cost per month as well?

I never challenged my 2500HD owning friend, but according to him, with his anticipated miles, he was convinced he would not recoup the cost for six or seven years. Is that out of whack?

 

[bretfraz]

My view is, if ya need a diesel, buy a diesel. If you don't need a diesel, they ain't worth the money.

If you tow for a living, gas makes life easier because there are more gas pumps than diesel pumps across America. But if you need the towing payload of a diesel, you really don't have much choice.

I'd love to know exactly who is getting 20+MPG from a 3/4 or 1-ton truck frequently towing a load or hauling. My employer has 8 service trucks and vans, 3 diesels and 5 gassers. No one is getting 20+MPG, gas or diesel. Actually the mileage between all these vehicles are pretty close, from 11-16MPG. The diesel trucks cost almost 2X to fill up compared to the gasser vans. We're not driving the diesels 2X farther.

The better resale value of a diesel is offset by their much higher price. Our 1996 F350 has over 250K on its 7.3L PSD. The engine is fine but the rest of the truck is falling apart. The PSD motor really isn't helping it's resale value (if you can even put a number on it). The depreciation curve of a service truck points down sharply, and a diesel engine doesn't flatten it out much.

 

[kenw]

diesels make much more sense for a business that depreciates the capital and can deduct fuel expenses differently than joe average. Mileage is typically better, but that is now very much offset partially by the higher cost of fuel. Also, newer diesels do NOT have the traditional life expectancy superiority due to added complexity (ie, turbos, etc). Forthcoming emissions rules will further degrade the historical advantages even more.

And has been already mentioned several times, the engine may last for 300k but the rest of the vehicle will be toast by then, especially in a commercial environment.

Bottomline is: if you can justify it, go for it. But it's virtually impossible for any individual using it primarily as basic transport to do so.

 

[ekpolk]

By kenw:

quote:

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Bottomline is: if you can justify it, go for it. But it's virtually impossible for any individual using it primarily as basic transport to do so.

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Aha, something we agree on 100%. I would hasten to add that none of my pretentious friends who run around in $75000 Lexi (Lexuses???) can "justify" their purchase and operation of their vehicles either. Truth be told, I suspect that if most of us were forced to rigorously analyze our car purchases by business standards, and buy only consistent with such analysis, most of us would be driving around in bare bones Cobalts, Corollas, or Civics.

 

[kenw]

bingo. even i must admit to a bit of frivolity in owning a camry with a v6 instead of the more justifiable i4.

but I am seriously considering a mazda 3 to replace it. (but with the bigger engine!!)

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

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Gary: You lost me there. By my examination of the Chevy.com build-up pages, if you took two 2500HD trucks, alike in all details, except A has the 6.0L gasser and GM automatic and B has the Duramax diesel and Allison 6-spd, B is going to cost about $7500 more than A (only about $5300 more if you go Duramax with GM trans). If the buyers of each were financing, how would the payments be lower for B, the more expensive diesel?

EDIT: You're factoring in fuel cost per month as well?

I never challenged my 2500HD owning friend, but according to him, with his anticipated miles, he was convinced he would not recoup the cost for six or seven years. Is that out of whack?

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Yep, it's all about fuel costs.


Okay ..now let's look at that $7500. It's financed over 5 years ..maybe 6 ..or a lease which is a wash in terms of cash out of pocket except for a few hundred $$$.

Take how much $7500 raises your payment vs. the weekly/monthly difference betwee 100% more fuel economy at a "normally) 25% increased in fuel costs.

Not one 8.0 liter engine gets anything over 10 mpg realistically. Anyone who says otherwise would have to run empty on the highway 100% of the time ..and would be a fool to own one in that service (for the sake of economics).

Let's take simple numbers since I can't find a "per $1000/month" figure off of google.

Let's say the diesel option is $5000 (let's say it's a stick) ..and the vehicle is financed for 5 years. That's approx $100/month for the duration of the loan. Normal gasoline fuel expenses, based on 10 mpg @ $2/gallon @ 15k a year, is $3000. The diesel @ $2.39 @ 20 mpg for the same mileage would be $1800. So you're at a fixed financed cost that breaks even during the first 5 years of ownership. This says nothing for the vast difference in utility that the diesel is capable of.

With a lease that included the eventual purchase ..the savings would be approx. 45% more due to the longer extension of the financing.

This, naturally throws out the radical unexplained "diesel penalty" that we're currently seeing in fuel costs. Currently, diesel should be going for about $2.75 max...with gas aruond $2.20.

The same option isn't as favorable if you're dealing with the difference between a 40 mpg vehicle and a 50 mpg vehicle. Under the same 15k/yr deal you lose.

 

[1sttruck]

"Bottomline is: if you can justify it, go for it. But it's virtually impossible for any individual using it primarily as basic transport to do so."

It was easy for us. We were driving two cars to a lot of places, and although both got 28 to 29 mpg on the highway the combined mileage was 14 mpg. Our last estimates on driving cost per mile was around 40 cents, which is a lot higher than just fuel. We get 19 to 20 mpg in the truck on the highway, and I get 17 to 18 mpg in town. Either Taurus sedan is usually only getting 20 mpg in town as we live on a hill, so any larger vehicle with a gas engine would be getting worse, some friends with larger gas powered trucks and SUVs commonly getting 10 to 12 mpg in town, some better, some worse.

Doing the math of 17.5 mpg vs 11 mpg in town, $2.50 a gal, there is a $7000 difference in favor of the diesel at a bit over 80k miles, and a $5000 difference at 60k miles. Differences narrow on the highway, where a comparison of 20 mpg vs 15 mpg has a diiference of $5000 at 120k miles.

We have a 93 Taurus that has 195k miles on it, which is about average mileage per year. 300k will come up quick as we're putting 20k miles a year on the truck so far, mainly just 'running around'.

Basic transportation is what I had in mind when I bought the truck, where any larger vehicle had to be a diesel. I wanted a stick as I've seen too many diesels have problems with autos. I wanted simple as I barely have time to do regular maintenance, much less spending time fixing stupid stuff. I ended up with a vehicle that seems to depreciate less than gas powered truck or SUV, lasts longer, gets better mileage, has better performance, and one that seems to have cost less than most of them too.

 

[Gary Allan]

quote:

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For me the decision path went; larger vehicle, diesel, Cummins, stick, pickup, 4x4, quad cab, simple, and then I looked for the best possible deal. This appears to almost be the opposite of the above.

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Exactly how I would compile the "heirarchy of needs" ;^)

 

[ekpolk]

Posted by 1stTruck:

quote:

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The subtle assumption here is that 'alike in all details' indicates that leather seats, butt warmers, lit vanity mirrors, overhead computers, doillie dispensers and such are as important as engine and powertrain when selecting a vehicle. I guess it is for most as most seem to start with a similar argument. For me the decision path went; larger vehicle, diesel, Cummins, stick, pickup, 4x4, quad cab, simple, and then I looked for the best possible deal. This appears to almost be the opposite of the above.

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Respectfully, no, that's not what I was assuming. The 6.6L diesel engine and Allison 6-speed options cost the same, whether the 2500HD they're being ordered for is a bone stock work truck or an absurdly overdone dude ranch rig (with the butt warmers

). But I would agree that there is a significant number of dude ranchers who order a 2500HD and then don't ever use it to haul anything heavier than their own overgrown (and toasty) butt. . .

 

[kenw]

"But I would agree that there is a significant number of dude ranchers who order a 2500HD and then don't ever use it to haul anything heavier than their own overgrown (and toasty) butt. "


from my experience in driving the highways and byways of America's 4th largest city daily, that would be about 96.263% of them.

or thereabouts....present company excluded of course.

heck, even about 98% of the fullsize gasoline trucks never have anything in the back that won't fit in may camry.

 

[1sttruck]

"By my examination of the Chevy.com build-up pages, if you took two 2500HD trucks, alike in all details, except A has the 6.0L gasser and GM automatic and B has the Duramax diesel and Allison 6-spd, B is going to cost about $7500 more than A"

The subtle assumption here is that 'alike in all details' indicates that leather seats, butt warmers, lit vanity mirrors, overhead computers, doillie dispensers and such are as important as engine and powertrain when selecting a vehicle. I guess it is for most as most seem to start with a similar argument. For me the decision path went; larger vehicle, diesel, Cummins, stick, pickup, 4x4, quad cab, simple, and then I looked for the best possible deal. This appears to almost be the opposite of the above.

 

[TheTanSedan]

The most useful calculator on the Net for comparing vehicles is at EDMUNDS, True Cost to Own, as the same methodology is applied to either a Camry or an Expedition.

Last year at this time I was able to buy a 2001 DODGE 1/2 ton gasser, below NADA, and below advertised local prices (less 15%). Heck of lucky deal. My wife and I have remodelled and sold two houses and are working on a third.

My complete, all-inclusive cost of ownership, (expressed in cents-per-mile [cpm]), is .43 cpm per my actual costs. The IRS is allowing, I believe, 42.5 cpm deduction since Katrina. I should be able to deduct about 50% of my mileage for the year. In other words, my truck costs me just under $300 per month after deductions.[/I] If this scenario holds, then my 5-year/60,000 mile total expense would be about $18,000; or .30 cpm.

(I also ran the Edmunds numbers as if it reflected my purchase costs on either a gas or diesel 3/4-ton 2001 model, and the cpm difference is about a nickel in favor of the gasser; or $3000 extra over five years; $50/month; $600/year).

Again, using the EDMUNDS TCO , I spec'd 2005 3/4-ton DODGE diesel and gasser trucks. At 60-mos and 60m miles, the total unreimbursed costs are $59,501 and $51,962; or, $991 monthly and $866 monthly. Or, .79 cpm and .70 cpm.

Reimbursed at 50% of all miles the cpm is .61 and .40 respectively. Or, $36,600 and $29,400 at 60-mos; $7320 per year and $5,880 per year; $610 and $490 per month.

My savings is from (over) $200 to $300 per month by buying used over new. Or, $12,000 to $18,000 over the five year period.

Since I can deduct those miles, my cost is, ostensibly, five years of operation versus one year for a Joe Homeowner (with a new diesel, miles unreimbursed).

In fact, it's better . . . that "additional" $40,000 (or, as above, actual $12-18,000) can go straight to retirement and investments plus their return.

Claiming that the dollar savings between a new diesel and a new gasser is significant due to vehicle price difference is fraudulent when compared to the cost of either truck and, say, a Camry (plus rental fees for a pickemup as needed).

Sure, I'd love to have a new Cummins turbo and six-speed . . I miss the sound of those 12-liter Cumminses and Detroits I used to drive OTR. And even if I drove the new one 12-15 years I can't reasonably expect to still be able to meet IRS guidelines during even half of that time. Only a guy like a plumbing contractor could make that sort of plan, and neither Joe Homeowner or myself will ever be able to meet -- long-term -- the cost/benefit ratio that makes a pickup truck a sound decision.

Even without the IRS deduction I can sell this truck for a good deal more than I have in it, all inclusive, through the end of the current remodel and sale (inside of a year).

Play with the True Cost to Own calculator, examine the methodology, and then talk about "I'm saving X over . . . ."