Smokers, we're getting $crewed again......

[oldmaninsc]

Originally Posted By: Beehive_Poker


I think this is the crux of the problem. Everybody is free to do what they want, until that freedom cuts into someone else's. Non-smokers, by and large, have this unwavering belief that since they do not smoke they somehow have more of a right to push their wants into legislation. I think it would be just as unfair if laws were passed that made every restaurant smoking only; it's unfair and should be left up to the restaurant owner. If you don't like the way that said restaurant runs their business, simply DO NOT GO THERE.


You see - that had been the thinking of smokers for MANY decades. They felt they had the "right" to smoke any where, any time. The rights of non smokers were ignored. Now it has gone the other direction and of course now smokers are complaining about their "rights" being violated.

The problem with letting restaurant owners choose if they are smoking or non smoking is very simple - $$$$$
Even if smokers are only 10 percent of their business, they will not risk losing that 10 percent. I have worked in the restaurant business for a long time and every owner I've ever seen had only one think in mind - how to make more money!
Quote:

It just seems to me like the majority of non smokers are in effect anti-smokers. If you honestly think that sitting in your car with the windows rolled up and the A/C on is grabbing carcinogenic air from the smokers car next to you, you have some sort of agenda. I can pick a million better things to irk me while idling in traffic, including the exhaust fumes, that render whatever microscopic trace amounts of cigarette smoke you may unlikely breath in, quite trivial.

No agenda here - I just don't like breathing that terrible smelling air. What about people that have small children? Whether the smoke has "carcinogenic" stuff in it or not (we could argue that all day long) - why should I have to breath it?
I don't know where you live, but I smell a LOT more cigarette smoke (no it isn't "unlikely" - it is real) in traffic than I do car exhaust.
If I didn't smell it - I wouldn't say a word about it. What do I care if someone next to me wants to spend his money on tobacco?

I would still like a smoker to answer my question. If the smell of smoke is so desirable - why do you open your window to let it out in the first place? Why not keep in your own car? That way you get to breath it twice and get at least twice the benefit.

 

[Cutehumor]

In our state of TN, we have smoke free restaurants. no more "smoking" or "nonsmoking sections" State passed a law a few years ago. Plus, Hospitals are going to smoke free too. Patients or staff won't be able to go outside to smoke.

 

[Beehive_Poker]

Quote:
No agenda here - I just don't like breathing that terrible smelling air. What about people that have small children? Whether the smoke has "carcinogenic" stuff in it or not (we could argue that all day long) - why should I have to breath it?
I don't know where you live, but I smell a LOT more cigarette smoke (no it isn't "unlikely" - it is real) in traffic than I do car exhaust.
If I didn't smell it - I wouldn't say a word about it. What do I care if someone next to me wants to spend his money on tobacco?


If you're wanting me to believe that you sitting in a car, with your windows rolled up, in an outdoor area- and you can smell the smoke of someone in a car next to you? I'll believe that after my lobotomy. You would have to be so scent sensitive that going ANYWHERE in public would cause you to gag, just by smelling somebody's usual body odor in the building next door.

I believe you to be one of those non-smokers that doesn't "smell" cigarette smoke until you SEE someone smoking. It's a common phenomena.

Quote:
I would still like a smoker to answer my question. If the smell of smoke is so desirable - why do you open your window to let it out in the first place? Why not keep in your own car? That way you get to breath it twice and get at least twice the benefit.


The smell of fresh smoke (from my cigarettes) is indeed a pleasurable scent, even to most non-smokers I congregate with. However, smoking in an enclosed space will give you a headache and irritate your sinuses. I crack my window about an inch, in order to allow my smoke to dissipate into the air.

Your argument makes as much sense as telling someone that enjoys the smell of burning leaves that they need to do it in a closed garage.

 

[Gary Allan]

I didn't read all 36 additional posts here ..but the bottom line on the smoking issue (not the tax issue exclusively) is that smoking legislation is NOT meant to protect the non-smoking public from smokers. If that were so, then it would be designed and configured to make it innocuous (smoke eaters ..air locks ..whatever). All the legislation is specifically designed to alter a behavior ..and nothing more. Anyone denying this is just deceiving themselves.

The tax is to further this agenda. It's the same with blood alcohol levels. We'll soon be (surely) at .06 to sweep in a whole new class of criminal.

These issues on tobacco or alcohol are provided for "anxiety sinks" for the rest of the frustrations of your life. They are, in effect, sin eaters and it allows you some whipping boy ..a public hanging..to give you some pound of flesh for the other things that you're impotent to effect.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Beehive_Poker
I think this is the crux of the problem. Everybody is free to do what they want, until that freedom cuts into someone else's. Non-smokers, by and large, have this unwavering belief that since they do not smoke they somehow have more of a right to push their wants into legislation. I think it would be just as unfair if laws were passed that made every restaurant smoking only; it's unfair and should be left up to the restaurant owner. If you don't like the way that said restaurant runs their business, simply DO NOT GO THERE.


Problem is that you don't keep YOUR enjoyment to YOURSELF if you smoke at a restaurant. You let it escape your confines and annoy other people.

Would you be happy with me coming over and seasoning your food, simply because I like tabasco and black pepper ?

 

[Beehive_Poker]

Originally Posted By: Shannow


Problem is that you don't keep YOUR enjoyment to YOURSELF if you smoke at a restaurant. You let it escape your confines and annoy other people.

Would you be happy with me coming over and seasoning your food, simply because I like tabasco and black pepper ?



Once again, blame the restaurant. If they're too cheap to afford adequate ventilation and exhaust to catch the smoke, or if you're sitting close enough to the smoke to notice it, ask to be moved or don't eat there. I don't eat at restaurants that don't have a smoking section. You should be able to find enough places to eat that are smoke free. The smokers are the ones that are having to give up their right to enjoy a meal and smoke.

 

[moribundman]

Behind_poker, you've never lived in a multi-unit apartment building, have you?

By the way, smokers tend to smell like full ashtrays.

 

[Shannow]

So you'd be happy for me to come and season your food...if you don't like it, find somewhere else to eat.

 

[Beehive_Poker]

Quote:
You see - that had been the thinking of smokers for MANY decades. They felt they had the "right" to smoke any where, any time. The rights of non smokers were ignored. Now it has gone the other direction and of course now smokers are complaining about their "rights" being violated.


It is the right of a business owner to allow smoking in the building they own. I don't like the government telling me much of anything, but if I open a bar or a cigar store and then the government tells me I'm not allowed to smoke in it, well then that's a gross violation of my rights as a business owner and smoker.

Look past cigarettes. Substitute cigarettes for anything. If you own a business and cater to clientele that is pro-whatever, the anti-whatever DO NOT have a right to tell you that you can't do what you want in that building. The government banned smoking in federal businesses, which is OK by me. More often than not you don't have the option as a non-smoker to go into an alternative federal building. But as a private citizen you have an alternative if the shoe shop you like allows smoking. You can go to the shoe shop that doesn't allow smoking. When you take away the alternative for the smoker, you simply take it away and there's nothing to do except move to a city that hasn't taken away the right to smoke in a building that allows it.

Quote:
The problem with letting restaurant owners choose if they are smoking or non smoking is very simple - $$$$$
Even if smokers are only 10 percent of their business, they will not risk losing that 10 percent. I have worked in the restaurant business for a long time and every owner I've ever seen had only one think in mind - how to make more money!


Yes, and how many businesses went nearly bankrupt that don't allow smoking? I know in Austin when they passed the ban, if your restaurant or bar didn't have a fenced in, covered outdoor area, you went out of business. When your business doesn't have the option to allow smokers to smoke in a place where smoking has traditionally been accepted, then your rights as a business owner have just been violated by the government.

If a restaurant owner wants to cater to non-smokers because he feels he'll pull in more money that way, then that's fine. If your local government bans you from allowing smoke in your restaurant whether you want it or not, then I say that the government should reimburse your lost revenue if business so drops off.

If the government thinks that what it's doing doesn't hurt business owners that pay the large tax bills that fattens their wallet, then they should offer positive cash flow to the businesses that they're hurting. That would be fair, but fair is not what makes us rich and powerful.

 

[Beehive_Poker]

Originally Posted By: moribundman
Behind_poker, you've never lived in a multi-unit apartment building, have you?

By the way, smokers tend to smell like full ashtrays.

Yes, moributtman, I went from tenement slums to my current McMansion.

Quote:
So you'd be happy for me to come and season your food...if you don't like it, find somewhere else to eat.


It depends. Does the restaurant allow patrons to come season your food? Is there a separate "seasoner" section for patrons such as yourself? Or did the government ban "seasoning" in public places but you're still doing it anyway?

 

[Shannow]

No, it's the infringing on other's rights to enjoyment.

You have no right to make my expensive meal taste like an ashtray, I have no right to tip used engine oil over your fence because I'm done with it.

Want to smoke in a restaurant, go buy a space suit, and stop your waste stream infiltrating others' space.

 

[Drew99GT]

Originally Posted By: Beehive_Poker

It depends. Does the restaurant allow patrons to come season your food? Is there a separate "seasoner" section for patrons such as yourself? Or did the government ban "seasoning" in public places but you're still doing it anyway?



If people who choose to put Tabasco sauce on their food were constantly going around restaurants putting Tabasco on everyone elses food, then dam right I'd support the banning of that practice in public. Wouldn't you?

 

[oldmaninsc]

Originally Posted By: Beehive_Poker
Quote:
No agenda here - I just don't like breathing that terrible smelling air. What about people that have small children? Whether the smoke has "carcinogenic" stuff in it or not (we could argue that all day long) - why should I have to breath it?
I don't know where you live, but I smell a LOT more cigarette smoke (no it isn't "unlikely" - it is real) in traffic than I do car exhaust.
If I didn't smell it - I wouldn't say a word about it. What do I care if someone next to me wants to spend his money on tobacco?


If you're wanting me to believe that you sitting in a car, with your windows rolled up, in an outdoor area- and you can smell the smoke of someone in a car next to you? I'll believe that after my lobotomy. You would have to be so scent sensitive that going ANYWHERE in public would cause you to gag, just by smelling somebody's usual body odor in the building next door.

Well believe what you want, but it's true. If I was sitting in my car with a blind fold on, and you pulled up next to me, smoking a cigarette with your window down or even cracked - I could smell it.
My wife and my daughters will smell it too. Most people in my family and a large portion of my friends have commented about this as well (being able to smell smoke from someone's car) Just because you are so used to the disgusting smell, doesn't mean the rest of the world is.

You don't seem to realize that the smoke that goes out your window doesn't just mysteriously disappear. It floats around. The car's heating/cooling system pulls in outside air. It's pretty simple really!
The smoke may not be near as strong as it is inside your car, but it is still very noticeable by everyone else.

Quote:

I believe you to be one of those non-smokers that doesn't "smell" cigarette smoke until you SEE someone smoking. It's a common phenomena.


You are so dead wrong it isn't even funny. I smell the smoke LONG before (I will emphasize the LONG again) LONG before I see anyone smoking.
Like I said, I don't really care what people do in their car until it effects me. Your attitude is typical of most smokers. The old "The smoke doesn't bother me, so how could it possible bother anyone else" attitude.

Again - IF the smoke didn't bother me and IF I couldn't smell it from another car (as you obviously think) why would I care what someone else does in their car? I don't really care if you spend your money on cigarettes and make your car, clothes and breath stink. Knock your socks off! Go to it! But I DON'T WANT TO BREATH IT!

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The smell of fresh smoke (from my cigarettes) is indeed a pleasurable scent, even to most non-smokers I congregate with.

I find that very difficult to believe - unless your friends are former smokers.

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However, smoking in an enclosed space will give you a headache and irritate your sinuses. I crack my window about an inch, in order to allow my smoke to dissipate into the air.

Your argument makes as much sense as telling someone that enjoys the smell of burning leaves that they need to do it in a closed garage.


You admit it bothers you in an enclosed area, what do you think it does to people around you? The smoke doesn't "dissipate into the air" quite as much as you think it does.
Granted some people are more sensitive to smoke smell than others. Do you care about other people that have various physical problems like - oh say asthma? I don't have it, but I know a lot of people that do.

You seem to think that I just hate every person that smokes and my only purpose in life is to make life difficult for them. Nothing is farther from the truth. I have family members that smoke. My best friend and roommate from college smokes - a lot!
I still see him about 3 - 4 times a year. He lives about 400 miles from me.
I love the guy like he was my brother. In the beginning we used to argue about this and decided our relationship was more important. We agreed to disagree.

It takes me several showers to get the smoke smell out of my skin after visiting him. It takes washing my clothes 3 or 4 times before the smoke smell is gone.

I know this is going to burst your bubble, but there is no hidden agenda - I just don't like the smell of cigarette smoke.

I'm not even going to comment on your remark about burning leaves because it's completely ridiculous.

 

[Beehive_Poker]

Quote:
I know this is going to burst your bubble, but there is no hidden agenda - I just don't like the smell of cigarette smoke.


There, you finally came out and admitted it. You just don't like smoke, therefore I need to go out of my way to accommodate you.

I'm glad some of your best friends are smokers. Some of my best friends are black!

 

[Shannow]

Interesting analogy.

 

[moribundman]

Healthy lung versus heavy smoker's lung

 

[tom slick]

Originally Posted By: Beehive_Poker
Quote:
I know this is going to burst your bubble, but there is no hidden agenda - I just don't like the smell of cigarette smoke.


There, you finally came out and admitted it. You just don't like smoke, therefore I need to go out of my way to accommodate you.

I'm glad some of your best friends are smokers. Some of my best friends are black!

so if I was cr@pping on your desk it would be your problem because you don't like the smell?

 

[Shannow]

that's what I've learned the last few pages.

 

[Beehive_Poker]

Quote:
so if I was cr@pping on your desk it would be your problem because you don't like the smell?


No, it would be your problem because last I checked, coming into someones personal office and defecating on their desk is illegal. Smoking is not.

But please do keep the childish analogies coming. As a smoker, I've heard them all.

Quote:
Interesting analogy.


As an Aussie, you may not be familiar with the typical white American response while being confronted with allegations of racism- "But some of my best friends are black!"

I just chuckled that it was used here. "You can't accuse me of not liking smoke people. My best friend and college roomate is a smoke person!"

 

[oilyriser]

Some smokers simply don't understand what it's like to have fully functional olfactory senses, and cannot believe others can smell them a tenth of a mile away, yet it is true, if one is directly downwind from someone puffing away.

With good filtration, however, the air in a smoking restaurant can be cleaner than the polluted city air outside. One reason for banning smoking is energy conservation. Without smokers, a building can be sealed up might tighter, and have less and less ventilation, limited next by people's tolerance to BO and perfume.