'Smart meters'?

In my original post I said that meter jumped 1000 KWH in a 24 hr period. It is faulty and the electric Co is disputing that. The reason I've been reading my meter is because I've known there was a problem with it for some time. I'm just trying to document it to prove it. They're trying to tell me that it's and they're always right. I'm calling bullcrap!

Originally Posted by michaelluscher
I think I would know (I install them for a living)
The meter itself is nothing to fear, eventually you won't have a choice
I was (kinda still am) the meter reader, it's not a job I'd cry over losing to automation
Any backhanded rate/tariff/plan changes that come along with it, that's where you need to check the fine print
If you want to whine to someone, call your states PSC and see what they'll do for you
A good chunk of the sudden changes in bills when a new meter is put in boils down to your old meter was just that.... Old
They can slow down/speed up with age
You wouldn't tolerate a fast meter, why should the utility tolerate a slow one?
Also, take a meter we haven't seen in 5+ years, we've been estimating so long, who knows how it'll true up when the meter gets swapped, you balk at the next months bill and blame the meter
I've noticed parallels between people against smart meters and people that are against whatever G we're up to this decade
Or people that complain, turns out they've had AMR since the early 90s and didn't know
I could go on
coffee2.gif
 
I like having one. My bills haven't changed a bit. I do monitor the usage and it's pretty accurate. It always shows when the afternoon heating or cooling begins and gave me a great baseline of power usage when we were on vacation for a week.

If my utility used these in conjunction with hourly pricing, you could really work the system into your favor.
 
I will chime in here, The smart meters do use power, the power used comes from the line side of the meter which does not get metered. You do not get charged for this. The old electro-mechanical meters used power too, actually more than a solid state meter in most applications. They were simply induction motors with friction brakes.

Electro-Mechanical meters do tend to slow down as they age especially in cold weather, the jewel bearings develop more friction ect.... so it is not uncommon to see "increased" usage when a 30 or 40 year old meter has been changed to a solid state meter. I seen this first hand at my own house, I have a separately metered garage that rarely has anything on, well for years many months there was no registered usage with the old electrical-mechanical meter. I had a carbon monoxide detector plugged in using 10 watts, not enough to turn the induction disk on the old meter but a solid state meter can start registering even at a couple watts usage.

I no longer even needed that Carbon monoxide detector so I unplugged it. I had simply forgotten about it.

In my line of work part of my position involves testing instrument rated meters as well as self contained residential meters. I have never seen a solid state meter register jump or skip 1000 kwh, or any for that matter, the few times there have been an issue it involved a human misreading it ( there are still a few reasons for us that a physical read is actually required at this time) or during the transition of the data from the metering system to the billing system there was corrupted data.

The solid state meters pretty much either work or they don't. They are very accurate, they pick up every watt hour used, nothing more, nothing less.

The equipment used to test meters on the local level is very accurate, tested and traceable to ANSI C12.20 standards and is calibrated and tested by an outside firm. Again it is all very precision and traceable.

There is no way for us to adjust a solid state meter, Typically the old electro-mechanical meters had to be within 2 percent accurate and usually erred in the customers favor, this was at room temperature, they tended to slow down as the ambient temperature decreased. The solid state meters are right at 100 percent, within a .10th of a percent and they can meter this accurately, repeatably with very little measurable variance from temperature. Even if the display goes bad on a solid state meter usually you can get a read from the register.

I am a big fan of Solid state meters because they are honestly more fair for everyone, and my biggest thing is they provide accurate and consistent data.
 
Originally Posted by pkunk
Well, the 'Smart meter' ain't so smart. I've been reading my own meter and reporting to Kit Carson Coop because I've been having some real 'spiky' electric bills. I also read and record the daily usage. A dozen days ago, that meter recorded 1018 KWH for one day! Now I'm trying to deal with the bureaucratic numbnuts and get the bill corrected and the meter replaced. Can you believe they want to add an additional $20+ to my monthly bill for a new meter.
I want and demand an analog meter but we shall see. Read this if you think these 'wonderful' electronic meters are any good.
Smart meter


Not doubting you, but what kind of furnace do you have? Septic grinder pump? What kind of electrical devices do you have?

Were you getting your reads physically from the meter or online? What is the make and model of your meter?

Now you would almost have to have 40kw heat strips running 24 hours straight to rack up that kind of usage, highly unlikely, however I have seen a situation where someone had a new furnace installed and they wired it incorrectly and the heat and ac was running at the same time. They had quite a bill.

I have seen septic grinders and pumps stick on causing high bills, neighbors stealing power, ect.... again to use 1000kwh in one day is really cranking. The most I have ever used in a day here was about 400kwh, this was during a -20 weather event with all electric heat.

Im just curious.
 
Ok.... Lots of info in that report, let me start with this....

So in the report referenced the author states that an analog meter can be in service for 40 to 47 years without a loss in accuracy. This is simply not true. The meters that we have tested that were over 25 years old have all slowed down to different degrees. Yes it was always in favor of the customer, but a meters job is to meter accurately to a standard with no bias.

The .31 cents a day figure to run the smart meter is erroneous. Even at .15cents a KWH that would require the meter to draw 83 watts constantly. Not even close.

The meters wont last 40 years, maybe not even 20, but they last for more than 5 years.
We have some AMI meters that are from 2000 plugging away....


Yes I work for an electric utility, no one is trying to rip off the customer.....I have a smart meter on my garage/shop, often there is no usage and there has NEVER been usage from powering the meter. I have had a month go by with zero usage and zero usage registered.
 
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Time of use metering is coming for everyone at some point. I will say this, you can not keep closing base load plants that provided cheap and reliable power left and right and replace then with much more expensive to maintain generation that is not reliable in its output and expect that cost will not go up during peak demand times.

I am not saying that it was right or wrong to close coal plants, I am saying that they were a relatively cheap and reliable way to provide base load power. For better or worse we have chosen a cleaner way to generate our power that costs more and does not provide a base load output and we are now seeing the costs attributed to that.

No free ride in life.
 
The analog meters use a gear train like a clock. They use power to turn the mechanism. Any power for that comes from the utility not the consumer. The smart meters are vastly superior in every way. I have it on the gas meter too, and some places have on the water. One thing I noticed since they installed them throughout the area was very few power outages now and short if there is one. Scammers took advantage of people, selling them metal hoods for the meters to direct the "radiation." Usually elderly who trust.
Have lived in a number of places and all utilities will come out , test, and replace if needed, any meter. Water, gas, electric. I think it is required they do so. They aren't ever going to agree with your opinion smart meters are no good.
I really like mine as I can measure accurately the load any item is drawing if I want to.
1000 kWh is a lot of power. Any pics of the meter?
 
Among other things, I've actually saved money with a smart meter.

The more or less real-time information(I can read mine in 15 minute intervals through the utility company website, although it only updates a couple of times a day) has let me track down some "phantom" power usage that I didn't realize was there. I'm seeing about 5% lower metered usage over months last year with similar average temperatures, so yeah it's benefited me on the whole.

One of the ones that really hit me was seeing the spike when I was out of town roughly every ~24 hours for when the water heater would kick on. Since pre-plague I traveled a lot(usually nearly every weekend) it got me in the habit of flipping off the breaker for the water heater in all but sub-freezing ambient. That saved me a surprising amount of savings, even though the water heater is less than a year old and supposedly a high efficiency one.

BTW, I should mention that my smart meter replaced a mechanical that was about 13 years old(place was built in 2006, smart meter installed 2019). Although I'm sure it has slowed some, it probably wasn't as dramatic as many of the 30+ year old ones that are out there in service.
 
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After the rest of my household leaves for a couple of weeks in the summer the first thing I do is switch off the circuit breaker for the water heater. When June arrives around here I have no more need for the water heater, but my wife will get mad if I turn it off when she is around.
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When my electric company installs smart meters for everyone I will have one, but I have no desire to get one in their pilot program.

Above michaelluscher mentioned writing to your PSC. I wrote to the Kentucky Public Services Commission last year when the water company proposed yet another raise to the flat fees on the water bill. I explained my position that as the operating costs increase for the water company they should raise the price of delivered water, not the flat fees.

The PSC didn't care about my position, they let the water company charge such steep flat fees that they exceed the water usage charges on my bill even when we are billed for 3,000 gallons which is a high usage month for us.

High flat fees are a way for the water company to rob the poor to subsidise the rich who have clout in these matters. This way they keep the water usage RATE low for wealthy households who fill their swimming pools and water huge lawns all summer, but the multitudes who live modestly and try not to waste water have to pay the big fees to keep the water company profitable.

The water company claims that these fees reflect the costs of maintaining their pipes. While I understand the cost of maintaining pipes is high, I disagree I should pay for those pipes, I am not becoming owner of those pipes. What I pay for is the delivered water, and the pipes are simply operating costs and expenditured to deliver that water.

Sorry about the rant.
lol.gif
 
Ours have been fine, used 828 kWh last month, lower than I expected. The AC at our old house would guzzle electricity, this newer York seems to sip it despite running 5-8 hours a day.
 
Originally Posted by pkunk
Well, the 'Smart meter' ain't so smart. I've been reading my own meter and reporting to Kit Carson Coop because I've been having some real 'spiky' electric bills. I also read and record the daily usage. A dozen days ago, that meter recorded 1018 KWH for one day! Now I'm trying to deal with the bureaucratic numbnuts and get the bill corrected and the meter replaced. Can you believe they want to add an additional $20+ to my monthly bill for a new meter.
I want and demand an analog meter but we shall see. Read this if you think these 'wonderful' electronic meters are any good.
Smart meter


Generally speaking the solid state meters are very accurate. If you really think the meter is reading incorrectly and the utility won't look into it, call your local weights and measures department.
 
Originally Posted by Oildudeny
i didn't think you had a choice.. when the utility company changes over to smart meters.


They can't force you to use one here. I have had a digital for years. Good enough for me.
 
Originally Posted by Oildudeny
i didn't think you had a choice.. when the utility company changes over to smart meters.


We have a choice, and far as I'm concerned, the old meter is working just fine.
 
Originally Posted by ctechbob
Didn't have a choice. They came and installed them one afternoon. Didn't see any difference afterwards with my bill. Still runs about the same depending on outside temp and if the wife decides to run the oven all afternoon in the summertime.
smirk2.gif



Same here. Mine was installed when I was on a trip. I had no choice in the matter. The usage it has reported is consistent with the usage reported by the analog meter and I can query data online.
 
Originally Posted by BearZDefect

Above michaelluscher mentioned writing to your PSC. I wrote to the Kentucky Public Services Commission last year when the water company proposed yet another raise to the flat fees on the water bill. I explained my position that as the operating costs increase for the water company they should raise the price of delivered water, not the flat fees.

The PSC didn't care about my position, they let the water company charge such steep flat fees that they exceed the water usage charges on my bill even when we are billed for 3,000 gallons which is a high usage month for us.

High flat fees are a way for the water company to rob the poor to subsidise the rich who have clout in these matters. This way they keep the water usage RATE low for wealthy households who fill their swimming pools and water huge lawns all summer, but the multitudes who live modestly and try not to waste water have to pay the big fees to keep the water company profitable.

The water company claims that these fees reflect the costs of maintaining their pipes. While I understand the cost of maintaining pipes is high, I disagree I should pay for those pipes, I am not becoming owner of those pipes. What I pay for is the delivered water, and the pipes are simply operating costs and expenditured to deliver that water.


I admit to not following KAW super closely. I'm on Louisville Water(and MSD, which is even worse), and my parents are on Frankfort Plant Board.

Louisville has been in the habit for a while now of raising fees just under the threshold that requires them to get PSC approval.

I tend to be fairly water frugal. My bill is every other month, and I think the highest I've had was a single 3000 gallon month from a leaky toilet. Most months I'm at 1K gallons a month, and I've had multiple bills that were 1K gallons over a 2 month period.

The thing is, my actual water usage is insignificant relative to the rest of my bill. I routinely run ~$110 for 2 months. I'll tell people that, and have had people from out of town suggest I had a leak. Using say 5K gallons in 2 months might bump me up to $125 or so, but there again the actual amount is almost nothing. The single biggest line item is MSD daily service charge, followed by water service and then a stormwater surcharge(flat rate daily). Those 3 together add up to over $100 for 2 months.

If I had a pool(I don't) and needed to fill it from empty, I honestly wouldn't sweat doing it from the tap aside from the amount of time it would take to do it. The house I grew up in(moved out of it when I was 10) had an 11,000 gallon in-ground. It had to be drained and filled twice in the time we were there-once for a new liner and the second time because they messed up the liner the first time. My dad filled it himself from the hose the first time, and it took a few days. He had the fire department fill it the second time, and it was more expensive but took an hour.
 
Originally Posted by 5AcresAndAFool
Originally Posted by pkunk
Well, the 'Smart meter' ain't so smart. I've been reading my own meter and reporting to Kit Carson Coop because I've been having some real 'spiky' electric bills. I also read and record the daily usage. A dozen days ago, that meter recorded 1018 KWH for one day! Now I'm trying to deal with the bureaucratic numbnuts and get the bill corrected and the meter replaced. Can you believe they want to add an additional $20+ to my monthly bill for a new meter.
I want and demand an analog meter but we shall see. Read this if you think these 'wonderful' electronic meters are any good.
Smart meter


Not doubting you, but what kind of furnace do you have? Septic grinder pump? What kind of electrical devices do you have?

Were you getting your reads physically from the meter or online? What is the make and model of your meter?

Now you would almost have to have 40kw heat strips running 24 hours straight to rack up that kind of usage, highly unlikely, however I have seen a situation where someone had a new furnace installed and they wired it incorrectly and the heat and ac was running at the same time. They had quite a bill.

I have seen septic grinders and pumps stick on causing high bills, neighbors stealing power, ect.... again to use 1000kwh in one day is really cranking. The most I have ever used in a day here was about 400kwh, this was during a -20 weather event with all electric heat.

Im just curious.



None of the above. Led Lights throughout. No furnace, no pumps. Low temp 52, high 84, absolutely nothing abnormal. Aclara 1-210+
 
Originally Posted by Donald
Always seemed silly in this day and age to have a little man in his truck stop at each house on a monthly basis to read the meter.



This actually stirred up a childhood memory for me. We grew up fairly rural and the elec company would actually send out a postcard where you would read your own meter calculate your bill and send it in. (Rural Electric Cooperative, aptly named). I even remember asking mom why you couldn't just cheat the thing and write the wrong number. Of course my kid brain didn't understand that they probably went around every now and then to check or spot check, or they would just catch you if you ever closed the account with a final reading. Not sure what they do these days. I'll have to ask my Aunt.
 
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