SM oils and reduced EP

Cujet · Jan 1, 2007

I have gathered from reading here that SM rated PCMO's have significantly less ZDDP. Where as SL rated oils may contain more.

So, my questions are:

1) Where do I find this information, other than scouring the BITOG forums? In other words, is there a list?
2) Are there other EP additives used in place of ZDDP?
3) If so, what are they?
4) Do they perform as well?
5) What oils still contain reasonable levels of ZDDP?
6) Do all SM rated oils have low ZDDP?
7) Can GM EOS be added in small quantities to increase the levels back to previous levels?

Thanks!

P.S. I build high HP engines and oil quality is extremely important.

Bryanccfshr · Jan 1, 2007

ZDDP is an inexpensive additive. The additives they have to use to meet SM GF4 specs with the reduced phosporus costs more, thus the resistance by some blenders

Blue99 · Jan 1, 2007

Chris - You may want to contact Terry Dyson & run this application past him. I think the $ fee for this type of analysis is very reasonable.

You may wish to consider a 10w30 HDEO such as Rotella, one of the newer 4 cycle motorcycle oils or the Amsoil 4 cycle engine oil, depending on the size of your crankcase & dollars per oil change.

All these options have higher ZDDP & EP adds for non-catalytic converter applications.

427Z06 · Jan 1, 2007

Quote:

So, my questions are:

1) Where do I find this information, other than scouring the BITOG forums? In other words, is there a list?
2) Are there other EP additives used in place of ZDDP?
3) If so, what are they?
4) Do they perform as well?
5) What oils still contain reasonable levels of ZDDP?
6) Do all SM rated oils have low ZDDP?
7) Can GM EOS be added in small quantities to increase the levels back to previous levels?

Thanks!

P.S. I build high HP engines and oil quality is extremely important.

The Phosphorus (ZDDP) limit was lowered 20% from SL to SM GF-4 oils. SM oils that are NOT GF-4, actually have no limits.

1) No list. Look up manufacturer specs or call their tech line. VOAs can be deceiving.
2) In many cases, yes.
3) Moly, Antimony, borate esters, and others, some proprietary.
4) Yes, but many are more expensive.
5) Reasonable depends on the application. Modern factory engines with rollerized valvetrains require a lot less. ZDDP is depleted with use, so length of service also enters the equation.
6) No. As mentioned above, SM oils that are NOT GF-4, actually have no limits, so it depends on the specific formulation.
7) Yes. But only use it if it's really needed such as in a flat tappet pushrod engine with aftermarket aggressive cam profiles and high pressure valvesprings.

Terry Dyson's services are highly recommended and can help with your specific applications.

TeeDub · Jan 1, 2007

The approach Amsoil has taken in their xw-20 and xw-30, API/SM oils is to complement the reduced levels of ZDDP (max phosphorus level < 800 ppm), with boron in the form of an ester. As you know, Amsoil has long been an API renegade, and have up to now continued to use high levels of ZDDP. The fact that they have chosen to reduce these levels in their top tier, un-licensed formulations indicates that they are satisifed with the alternate chemical approaches now possible.

The combination of boron and ZDDP combines synergistically to form lower friction,longer lasting AW films on the surfaces of ferrous materials, ie valvetrain parts and rings/cylinders.

ZDDP is also a very effective and cost effective anti-oxidant additive, which mitigates excessive oil thickening over long service intervals. This role has been taken up by ashless anti-oxidants such as certain amine compounds.

The preliminary used oil analysis I've seen - at least for Amsoil - indicate that the latest API/SM formulations give up nothing in terms of wear protection and actually stay in grade better than the previous SL catagory.

For those hard to please, "old school" guys, I'd simply point out that most xw-40 and xw-50 engine oils still continue to use relatively high levels of ZDDP. For example, even the new CJ-4 rated, Amsoil 5w-40("DEO"), contains approx 1200 ppm/1400 ppm of P and Zn, respectively.

Cujet · Jan 1, 2007

Thanks guys, that answers my questions.

As you might be aware, I was using Mobil 1 15w50 with superb results. However this last batch of Mobil 1 15w50 (SM) is having trouble maintaining oil pressure when hot. Not sure why, but I suspect a formulation change. But my oil of choice is gone. Sudden valve troubles too!

From what I understand, ZDDP also helps reduce piston skirt wear. I use these super short skirt pistons. I am concerned that piston wear will accelerate with SM oils.

By the way, I have no single application. My engines needs include low revving marine forced induction V8's, alternative aircraft engines, motorcycle engines, race cars, high output turbocharged 4 cylinder street cars, modified lawn mower engines and of course the personal stuff around the ranch, very little of which is stock.

Chris

Ray H · Jan 2, 2007

Quote:

SM oils that are NOT GF-4, actually have no limits.

I've never seen an SM motor oil available for sale in the U.S. that wasn't rated ILSAC GF-4, too. I'd appreciate your supplying a list of those API SM rated oils which don't qualify as ILSAC GF-4 (ILSAC being a cooperative effort among Japanese and U.S. automakers that agree on fuel economy standards in addition to wear limits.) I also question your assertion that API SM, in itself, doesn't carry limits on phosphorus content. I was under the impression that automaker concerns regarding their fear of premature catalytic converter failure from phosphorus "poisoning" (leastways while the vehicle's catalytic converter was their responsibility under the Federally mandated 8 yr./80,000 mile emissions warranty

) was a primary impetus driving the transition from SL to SM motor oil standards.

427Z06 · Jan 2, 2007

Quote:

Quote:

SM oils that are NOT GF-4, actually have no limits.

Click to expand...

I've never seen an SM motor oil available for sale in the U.S. that wasn't rated ILSAC GF-4, too. I'd appreciate your supplying a list of those API SM rated oils which don't qualify as ILSAC GF-4 (ILSAC being a cooperative effort among Japanese and U.S. automakers that agree on fuel economy standards in addition to wear limits.) I also question your assertion that API SM, in itself, doesn't carry limits on phosphorus content. I was under the impression that automaker concerns regarding their fear of premature catalytic converter failure from phosphorus "poisoning" (leastways while the vehicle's catalytic converter was their responsibility under the Federally mandated 8 yr./80,000 mile emissions warranty

) was a primary impetus driving the transition from SL to SM motor oil standards.

Ray, read the following reference...carefully. Take special notice of the notes on the bottom of the page and as their referenced in the tables.

http://www.infineum.com/information/api-passenger-sm-2004.html

As far as compiling a list of such oils, you're on your own.

Bryanccfshr · Jan 2, 2007

Ray, you can start with high mileage oils.

427Z06 · Jan 2, 2007

Quote:

From what I understand, ZDDP also helps reduce piston skirt wear. I use these super short skirt pistons. I am concerned that piston wear will accelerate with SM oils.

Modern Hi-Po pistons have coated skirts...further ZDDP doesn't help with aluminum. You running cast iron pistons?

buster · Jan 2, 2007

Cujet, I'd look into using Amsoil's Marine oils or MC oils. I'd also consider Redline and Mobil V-Twin.

http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/wcf.aspx

427/TeeDub gave great answers.

Running oils with very high levels of ZDDP are not that beneficial in "most" modern engines and the data on here shows that very well.

Cujet · Jan 2, 2007

"Ray, you can start with high mileage oils."

I'm not Ray, but I do not understand this statement.

Do you mean oils for high mileage cars such as Valvoline MaxLife? Or do you mean extended performance oils such as Mobil 1 Extended Performance? Or are you talking about energy conserving oils?

Chris

Bryanccfshr · Jan 2, 2007

I am speaking of oils marketed as "High Mileage" for older vehicles. Many of them have the API SM rating but do not carry ILSAC markings. A good example is Maxlife synthetic.

AndyH · Jan 2, 2007

Quote:

"Ray, you can start with high mileage oils."

I'm not Ray, but I do not understand this statement.

Do you mean oils for high mileage cars such as Valvoline MaxLife? Or do you mean extended performance oils such as Mobil 1 Extended Performance? Or are you talking about energy conserving oils?

He means oils created for engines that have higher mileage, i.e., Valvoline MaxLife, Castrol GTX High Mileage, etc.

Cujet · Jan 2, 2007

"Modern Hi-Po pistons have coated skirts...further ZDDP doesn't help with aluminum. You running cast iron pistons?"

That is absolutely not true. Yes, there are coated pistons in service, and I am sure plenty of OEM's use coated pistons. But aftermarket pistons are a different story. Wiseco pistons, for instance are not all coated. Many of the aftermarket Harley pistons are not coated, nor are they available as coated. JE is another company selling non coated pistons. I know nothing about the role of ZDDP and piston skirts. Only that it is supposed to help piston skirt life. My very fav oil provided exceptional anti wear, and it had high levels of ZDDP. Is this why?

And, yes, I do have a few cast iron pistons in service right now!

Chris

link for a large assortment of current pistons. http://www.nrhsperformance.com/partspistons.shtml

http://www.jepistons.com/cat/je/sport/honda/b16a1-a2-a3.shtml

The list goes on and on.

unDummy · Jan 2, 2007

1. VOA the oil. Use an aftermarket additive if you want that extra ZDP that might not be needed.
2. Yep, already mentioned above. They cost more. I guess the ol' timers really don't want to change with technology.
3. Moly, Boron,.......
4. Oils perform better then ever. Newer additives perform better.
5. Diesel, motorcyle, marine, power toys(4 cycle 3-4 wheelers, snowmobiles,...) and other non-auto oils still have the older additives.
6. Licensing has loopholes depending on the order of the specs on the bottle label, and honesty of the oil brand or blender.
7. GM EOS is just one of a bunch of oil additives that can give you that ZDDP boost, if that is what you want(whether you need it or not). Right now, I see Zddp as a 'peace of mind' additive.

Visit the VOA/UOA sections here. There are plenty of VOAs on oils and additives.

Steve S · Jan 2, 2007

A Question ,I thought gear oils only had EP additives?

Cujet · Jan 2, 2007

It is strange to me that the oils for heavy duty use still have the additives. That in itself is telling.

unDummy says: "Oils perform better then ever. Newer additives perform better"

Clearly, I stated that my very favorite oil is not performing as it used to. This is a real world experience. Yes, this fact applies to just this one oil. But...... How am I to know which is a good choice?

It seems that the good choices are certain heavy duty oils.

Chris

buster · Jan 2, 2007

Cujet, I believe most oils perform better then ever, except M1. M1's quality has dropped over the years.

TallPaul · Jan 2, 2007

Quote:

It is strange to me that the oils for heavy duty use still have the additives. That in itself is telling.

Well a diesel should be harder on oil since it has much higher compression ratio and puts more sooty byproducts into the oil (if I understand correctly), but now that they have watered down the zddp in passenger car oils, they are working on doing the same for diesel oils. Right, there are compensatory additives, but us old schoolers love our zddp.

Yeah, pretty sure Maxlife is SM, but not GF4 (there is no starburst either, unless they just recently added it).

SM oils and reduced EP

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