Sludge?

[mickey85]

Originally Posted by Needleman
Have you ever had to add coolant? Could be a slow coolant leak contaminating the oil & causing the sludge. Did you ever run any UOA's on her car? Do you have any used oil samples you can send in? That would be my first thought. Second would be PCV maybe a bad valve. Doesn't sound like an oil related issue, especially with M1 and your change intervals.


I did have to top it off once last year, as it was below the low level when it was cold, and peace of mind was worth the antifreeze. I thought it weird bc there wasn't any external leaks, and no weirdness in the oil (milk, sludge, stripes, etc). Also I've never had to add any more, and it's been over a year.

 

[SonofJoe]

Mickey85,

I'm an ex-oil formulator, I've run hundreds of sludge tests in my time & I know more about sludge deposition than your average bear!

IMO, they way you describe things, I'd say that it's nigh on impossible for you to have laid down even the tiniest amount of sludge in your engine. US engine oils and fuels (sludge formation is as much a fuel thing as it is a lube thing) tend to be very resistant to oxidation over 7.5k miles.

Now there might well have been SOMETHING in your engine (a random bit of detritus, swarf, fibres, cardboard or whatever) which the guy MISTOOK for sludge, but it wasn't sludge in the convention sense.

This probably doesn't help you but that's my take on the situation.

 

[mickey85]

Originally Posted by SubieRubyRoo

Go to International Subaru of Merrillville on 30, they are a Stellar Performer dealership and have always been above board during the 10+ years I've dealt with them. No shady charges or questionable repairs... and one time I asked the service manager to do a valve adjustment on my 01 Forester. His answer? "I could do a bunch of services you don't need today and take your money, but I'd rather only do the services your car needs and keep you as a customer for life." I'm sold!



Never ever will I go to merrillville.

My wife and I went to buy a car. We found one we wanted in the front lot. Dude said it was already sold, and that they stuffed the lot with sold cars so that they look like they have more inventory.

Then, we find another car we like. Going to do the trade in (04 cooper S, manual trans, red with white stripes, 90k miles), we asked for 5k. Dude said no way, it's not worth that, and nobody wants MTs. We leave, he calls and all of a sudden he can afford 5k. Nope.

We called up the dealer in south bend/mishawaka, they offered us 5k sight unseen and we were out the door in 2 hrs.

I took my car to castle under warranty for brake noise. I'd bought it from a different dealer (bob rohrman in lafayette) where it was a fleet car, so always serviced by subie. Dude at castle says that it has aftermarket brakes and genuine subaru brakes would make it better. I left, put wagners on it and it's been silent ever since.


Castle is a [censored] dealer, but after the bad taste in my mouth from merrillville, I thought it was the best option. Womp womp

 

[mickey85]

Originally Posted by rooflessVW
In no way will "sludge" affect a cam sensor. There's no "clogging" a hall effect sensor.

Your engine isn't sludged, and the dealer is full of it. They didn't want to perform the work for free.

What warranty were you still under at 95k miles? Theirs?


The warranty was a subaru extended. Covered the powertrain to 100k

 

[mickey85]

Originally Posted by SonofJoe
Mickey85,

I'm an ex-oil formulator, I've run hundreds of sludge tests in my time & I know more about sludge deposition than your average bear!

IMO, they way you describe things, I'd say that it's nigh on impossible for you to have laid down even the tiniest amount of sludge in your engine. US engine oils and fuels (sludge formation is as much a fuel thing as it is a lube thing) tend to be very resistant to oxidation over 7.5k miles.

Now there might well have been SOMETHING in your engine (a random bit of detritus, swarf, fibres, cardboard or whatever) which the guy MISTOOK for sludge, but it wasn't sludge in the convention sense.

This probably doesn't help you but that's my take on the situation.


Thanks for the info!

 

[SonofJoe]

Another thought...

If they said the problem was caused by sludge, unless they really set to and degunked the entire engine (which I doubt), there should still be clear evidence of sludge formation present; both in & around the valve desk, under the timing chain cover, on the oil pick-up mesh and especially in the lower reaches of the sump (oil pan).

If no sludge is to be found in those places, then you never had the problem in the first place.

You could try seeking help from ExxonMobil but my guess is they won't wade in on your side to defend the honour of 'their' oil. For them, you're not the customer (the OEM are their 'real' customers) but an irritation. Sorry.

 

[mickey85]

Originally Posted by maxdustington


Using Tear-o-lators, and getting pushed around by the dealership is stuff that a normal BITOGer should not be doing. On top of that you have the effrontery to criticize perfect automaker Subaru on this board? You're no BITOGer!


I'm going to assume you're being sarcastic. Never bagged on subaru, and I'm a convert after driving mostly jeeps for the last decade.

As for purolator, reading BITOG posts are one of the reasons I use them - a number of people compared them to other quality brands, and I've never had issue with them in the past.

 

[RyanY]

This is an interesting thread! I think the moral of the story is that dealers should be avoided whenever possible. I have always been hesitant to go to dealers - mostly because of cost - but this story is another reason...

 

[maxdustington]

Originally Posted by JLTD
Thanks for this good info. I'm thinking that Mickey should be getting his $$ back from Castle Subaru, formerly Nielsen Subaru.
Not going to happen without legal action
Originally Posted by SonofJoe
You could try seeking help from ExxonMobil but my guess is they won't wade in on your side to defend the honour of 'their' oil. For them, you're not the customer (the OEM are their 'real' customers) but an irritation. Sorry.
See above
Originally Posted by mickey85
I'm going to assume you're being sarcastic. Never bagged on subaru, and I'm a convert after driving mostly jeeps for the last decade.
I was being sarcastic, I know if I trash Subaru in a thread member SubieRubyRoo will come to their defense.

They're an increasingly popular brand with a history of head gasket issues that are pretty much solved by now. Due to their popularity, more and more negative reviews of them and their dealerships come to light. This has nothing to do with their quality, but due to the fact that there are more on the road now than ever. Subaru and Hyundai are the new Toyota and Honda on this board.
Originally Posted by mickey85
As for purolator, reading BITOG posts are one of the reasons I use them - a number of people compared them to other quality brands, and I've never had issue with them in the past.

 

[anndel]

Can't believe sludge would clog a camshaft position sensor. Cars I've worked on don't have any openings on the engine side of the sensor. Unless tons of sludge coated the coil side with layers and layers of sludge but 15,000 miles shouldn't put that much sludge, if any. They're full of BS! Did they show you the sludge or the sensor? These are "boxer" engines and I haven't heard of any sludge problems with them. Wish I lived near you I would have replaced the cps for free then go fishing.

 

[mickey85]

Originally Posted by RyanY
This is an interesting thread! I think the moral of the story is that dealers should be avoided whenever possible. I have always been hesitant to go to dealers - mostly because of cost - but this story is another reason...


99% of the time I do my own work. When I don't, the car goes to an indy. With this, it appeared to be subaru specific enough to warrant a dealership visit. We also assumed it would be covered under warranty...

Anndel, these are the oil pressure powered vvt...actuators? That change the timing. The passages are small enough to clog easily apparently, from my reading. the CPS is what's reading the slow response time.

 

[StevieC]

I highly doubt sludged if it existed caused that problem. Sounds like they wanted to bill more than what warranty work would pay. I would ask for proof next time if in a similar situation. If you did in fact have sludge I would want to know why it's building up because the oil and OCI you are using wouldn't cause that.

 

[Nick1994]

If it is sludged with 7,500 mile OCI's, it's got a bad head gasket. Have you had to add coolant?

 

[Lolvoguy]

Just another perk of owning a Subie!

 

[mickey85]

Originally Posted by Nick1994
If it is sludged with 7,500 mile OCI's, it's got a bad head gasket. Have you had to add coolant?



I did a year ago for peace of mind. It was nearly at the bottom of the puke can when it was cold, so I added more. I haven't had to since then, and haven't noticed any drips, nor any milk, sludge, or streaks when changing oil. I check the level every oil change, and don't notice a difference. Nor do I see any evidence of fouling in the antifreeze. Further, with the revised engine, they're supposed to have gotten away from the head gasket issues of the old ones anyway...

 

[rubberchicken]

If it still throws the code, I would take it back there and read them the riot act. Also, a few UOA in your back pocket would bolster your case regarding sludge.

 

[Trav]

I suspect double dipping! give the customer some bogus story to deny warranty, charge them full retail then hit the manufacturer for the warranty repair cost.
Call Subaru zone and complain, tell them you suspect shenanigans, you may get a check and a couple of free OC.
When I was young I worked for a dealer that did this and much worse, they caught one some years ago renting cheap motel rooms permanently to run false warranty claims through and a Honda dealer damaging wiring harnessing and claiming it was animals to the customer (animals with 24TPI), denying warranty and charging $2500 for the repair then hitting Honda for a warranty damage claim for defective part.

There are some really good dealers that will go out of their way to help but there are many more 24K scumbags that deserve to be in prison.

 

[Triple_Se7en]

Originally Posted by Trav
I suspect double dipping! give the customer some bogus story to deny warranty, charge them full retail then hit the manufacturer for the warranty repair cost.
Call Subaru zone and complain, tell them you suspect shenanigans, you may get a check and a couple of free OC.
When I was young I worked for a dealer that did this and much worse, they caught one some years ago renting cheap motel rooms permanently to run false warranty claims through and a Honda dealer damaging wiring harnessing and claiming it was animals to the customer (animals with 24TPI), denying warranty and charging $2500 for the repair then hitting Honda for a warranty damage claim for defective part.

There are some really good dealers that will go out of their way to help but there are many more 24K scumbags that deserve to be in prison.


Trav, that was a great post!

Agree to call Subaru and investigate any claim done by your dealer, in regards to your specific repair.
Nail that SOB and get a lawyer to pursue getting a refund by the dealer. Then tell the dealer President you want the service tech/mechanic that handed you all the lies, to be the one personally handing you the $600 refund check for the repair. Then give the Dealer President the bill for your lawyer.

 

[gathermewool]

Why didn't you contact Subaru of America?

1. As others have said, it's very unlikely that your engine has a sludge problem, based on your posts.

2. If you KNOW you didn't miss an OCI, then simply add it to your record. They're basing their denial off of YOUR record, not theirs.

3. Even if you did miss one OCI, how did that cause the sensor to fail? did they just clean off the "sludge" and put the old sensor back on? Why did you need a new sensor, if the cause wasn't the sensor failing?

 

[askani79705]

As stated earlier call corporate. Wife had a bad passenger airbag sensor and was told it wasn't covered. Full price was $1200 . I got involved and called Subaru America and yes it was covered and I recieved a refund. You got to watch these dealers