With respect to caliber and ammo choices for self/home defense the discussion always centers around penetration and expansion with the impact of vital organs in mind , my question is what happens when bone is struck, does it result, as I would imagine, in absolutely excruciating pain that would stop an attacker? It would seem to me that if a rib, breastbone, collarbone or any bone was struck at close range the incredible shock and nauseating pain would drop an attacker to his knees and end the confrontation . Does anyone have any information, experience or references on the impact of this type of wound? Thank you.
Skeletal Wounds
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http://www.jenjdanna.com/blog/2013/4/2/forensics-101-bullet-wounds-in-bonethe-skull.html
Basically, the bullet can transfer its energy to the bone very easily and this causes it to radiate and fracture the bone in multiple places.
Since everyone is different, it's hard to say whether or not that will incapacitate a person. If you have a high threshold for pain, or are on drugs, it won't necessarily stop you. As always, it's a matter of how you shoot and not really what you shoot.
Basically, the bullet can transfer its energy to the bone very easily and this causes it to radiate and fracture the bone in multiple places.
Since everyone is different, it's hard to say whether or not that will incapacitate a person. If you have a high threshold for pain, or are on drugs, it won't necessarily stop you. As always, it's a matter of how you shoot and not really what you shoot.
During my time in Afghanistan I experience quite a bit of what you are talking about. During that time, I witnessed a lot of calibers impacting bone first and at no time did the individual continue to fight. However, it really depends on the impact zone. Chest cavity impacting ribs first will normal still impact some vital organs unless they are extremely lucky. I have seen fighters fighting after having arm or leg impacts (through bone) but most waist up shots were pretty much a fight ender.
A lot of these fighter are on some type of drug also. They still dropped like a rock if hit in certain areas.
I would recommend your ammo of choice have at least 12" of penetration.
A lot of these fighter are on some type of drug also. They still dropped like a rock if hit in certain areas.
I would recommend your ammo of choice have at least 12" of penetration.
OVERKILL
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Originally Posted By: dparm
http://www.jenjdanna.com/blog/2013/4/2/forensics-101-bullet-wounds-in-bonethe-skull.html
Basically, the bullet can transfer its energy to the bone very easily and this causes it to radiate and fracture the bone in multiple places.
Since everyone is different, it's hard to say whether or not that will incapacitate a person. If you have a high threshold for pain, or are on drugs, it won't necessarily stop you. As always, it's a matter of how you shoot and not really what you shoot.
Exactly. Drugs can be a game changer. I imagine an SSG from a 12-gauge would ventilate enough things to stop the perp though regardless. And if you have a few in the tube, one to the head is definitely going to fix 'em up!
I always think about the Miami "zombie" face eater guy who got shot what, like 6 times before they were able to drop him???
http://www.jenjdanna.com/blog/2013/4/2/forensics-101-bullet-wounds-in-bonethe-skull.html
Basically, the bullet can transfer its energy to the bone very easily and this causes it to radiate and fracture the bone in multiple places.
Since everyone is different, it's hard to say whether or not that will incapacitate a person. If you have a high threshold for pain, or are on drugs, it won't necessarily stop you. As always, it's a matter of how you shoot and not really what you shoot.
Exactly. Drugs can be a game changer. I imagine an SSG from a 12-gauge would ventilate enough things to stop the perp though regardless. And if you have a few in the tube, one to the head is definitely going to fix 'em up!
I always think about the Miami "zombie" face eater guy who got shot what, like 6 times before they were able to drop him???
I know of an individual shot in the forearm at close range with a Federal Hydrashok (sp?) in .45 Auto, it did impact bone, essentially "shattering" the Ulna (iirc - took about six screws to kludge it back together) and then penetrating his chest cavity and caused his lungs to collapse, although the fragments missed all the major vessels and his heart.
He wasn't in a fight, but he could not have continued it if he had been. He was very lucky it was not a lethal injury.
I doubt that in and outs of any caliber would be a fight stopper without some type of CNS injury on the way out.
Despite that, when I carry, I usually pocket carry a Tomcat or PPK in .32. Sometimes a P238 in .380.
He wasn't in a fight, but he could not have continued it if he had been. He was very lucky it was not a lethal injury.
I doubt that in and outs of any caliber would be a fight stopper without some type of CNS injury on the way out.
Despite that, when I carry, I usually pocket carry a Tomcat or PPK in .32. Sometimes a P238 in .380.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: dparm
http://www.jenjdanna.com/blog/2013/4/2/forensics-101-bullet-wounds-in-bonethe-skull.html
Basically, the bullet can transfer its energy to the bone very easily and this causes it to radiate and fracture the bone in multiple places.
Since everyone is different, it's hard to say whether or not that will incapacitate a person. If you have a high threshold for pain, or are on drugs, it won't necessarily stop you. As always, it's a matter of how you shoot and not really what you shoot.
Exactly. Drugs can be a game changer. I imagine an SSG from a 12-gauge would ventilate enough things to stop the perp though regardless. And if you have a few in the tube, one to the head is definitely going to fix 'em up!
I always think about the Miami "zombie" face eater guy who got shot what, like 6 times before they were able to drop him???
I think instant stopping power is pretty much proportional to round energy from my hunting experience. So a smaller hand gun rounds will not always drop a guy instantly even with an eventually lethal shot. I've got to think something like a 12g slug in the abdomen must be almost an instant stopper everytime.
Originally Posted By: dparm
http://www.jenjdanna.com/blog/2013/4/2/forensics-101-bullet-wounds-in-bonethe-skull.html
Basically, the bullet can transfer its energy to the bone very easily and this causes it to radiate and fracture the bone in multiple places.
Since everyone is different, it's hard to say whether or not that will incapacitate a person. If you have a high threshold for pain, or are on drugs, it won't necessarily stop you. As always, it's a matter of how you shoot and not really what you shoot.
Exactly. Drugs can be a game changer. I imagine an SSG from a 12-gauge would ventilate enough things to stop the perp though regardless. And if you have a few in the tube, one to the head is definitely going to fix 'em up!
I always think about the Miami "zombie" face eater guy who got shot what, like 6 times before they were able to drop him???
I think instant stopping power is pretty much proportional to round energy from my hunting experience. So a smaller hand gun rounds will not always drop a guy instantly even with an eventually lethal shot. I've got to think something like a 12g slug in the abdomen must be almost an instant stopper everytime.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: dparm
http://www.jenjdanna.com/blog/2013/4/2/forensics-101-bullet-wounds-in-bonethe-skull.html
Basically, the bullet can transfer its energy to the bone very easily and this causes it to radiate and fracture the bone in multiple places.
Since everyone is different, it's hard to say whether or not that will incapacitate a person. If you have a high threshold for pain, or are on drugs, it won't necessarily stop you. As always, it's a matter of how you shoot and not really what you shoot.
Exactly. Drugs can be a game changer. I imagine an SSG from a 12-gauge would ventilate enough things to stop the perp though regardless. And if you have a few in the tube, one to the head is definitely going to fix 'em up!
I always think about the Miami "zombie" face eater guy who got shot what, like 6 times before they were able to drop him???
I think instant stopping power is pretty much proportional to round energy from my hunting experience. So a smaller hand gun rounds will not always drop a guy instantly even with an eventually lethal shot. I've got to think something like a 12g slug in the abdomen must be almost an instant stopper everytime.
Agreed, but I think the problem with slugs in a home defence scenario is that they keep going.... Which is why buck shot I think is a more common choice. I was able to illustrate the effects of both rounds in rather graphic detail on a few hard drives and the buck shot just dented the drives. The slug went right on through and kept going...... Worth mentioning is the fact that the SSG made much larger dents and a few penetrations.
I dunno the stance on SSG's for home defence, but I know for destroying things they seem to get the job done
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: dparm
http://www.jenjdanna.com/blog/2013/4/2/forensics-101-bullet-wounds-in-bonethe-skull.html
Basically, the bullet can transfer its energy to the bone very easily and this causes it to radiate and fracture the bone in multiple places.
Since everyone is different, it's hard to say whether or not that will incapacitate a person. If you have a high threshold for pain, or are on drugs, it won't necessarily stop you. As always, it's a matter of how you shoot and not really what you shoot.
Exactly. Drugs can be a game changer. I imagine an SSG from a 12-gauge would ventilate enough things to stop the perp though regardless. And if you have a few in the tube, one to the head is definitely going to fix 'em up!
I always think about the Miami "zombie" face eater guy who got shot what, like 6 times before they were able to drop him???
I think instant stopping power is pretty much proportional to round energy from my hunting experience. So a smaller hand gun rounds will not always drop a guy instantly even with an eventually lethal shot. I've got to think something like a 12g slug in the abdomen must be almost an instant stopper everytime.
Agreed, but I think the problem with slugs in a home defence scenario is that they keep going.... Which is why buck shot I think is a more common choice. I was able to illustrate the effects of both rounds in rather graphic detail on a few hard drives and the buck shot just dented the drives. The slug went right on through and kept going...... Worth mentioning is the fact that the SSG made much larger dents and a few penetrations.
I dunno the stance on SSG's for home defence, but I know for destroying things they seem to get the job done
Drugs do seem to make it a game changer on putting a perp down fast. The old tale about the 38 Army revolver and the Moro fighters comes to mind. Many took a whole cylinder and still hacked troops with knives and daggers.
And then there is the famous FBI shootout in 86 where the guy took something like 16 rounds before going down.
And then there is the famous FBI shootout in 86 where the guy took something like 16 rounds before going down.
Handguns are handguns.
Rifles and Shotguns are long guns.
Think of them as Kinetic Energy weapons.
You have a handy 3-4" barrel in a handgun.
You have 16"-24" in a rifle and at least 18" in a shotgun.
The math is pretty simple.
As far as striking bone, it really doesn't matter. It matters more what organs are impacted.
Shock and adrenaline are amazing things. People suffer incredible wounds that are fatal, and still do strenuous activities following the injuries.
Watch "I Shouldn't Be Alive" sometime. Folks survive a bunch of wild stuff.
However, destroy the Central Nervous System or the Circulatory system, and things end quickly.
Look at Deer hunting and Hog hunting, if you don't destroy critical organs, your target will get lost.
BTW, "Stopping Power" discussions can go on for decades, and have been researched actively for over 100 years now.
It is interesting stuff.
Rifles and Shotguns are long guns.
Think of them as Kinetic Energy weapons.
You have a handy 3-4" barrel in a handgun.
You have 16"-24" in a rifle and at least 18" in a shotgun.
The math is pretty simple.
As far as striking bone, it really doesn't matter. It matters more what organs are impacted.
Shock and adrenaline are amazing things. People suffer incredible wounds that are fatal, and still do strenuous activities following the injuries.
Watch "I Shouldn't Be Alive" sometime. Folks survive a bunch of wild stuff.
However, destroy the Central Nervous System or the Circulatory system, and things end quickly.
Look at Deer hunting and Hog hunting, if you don't destroy critical organs, your target will get lost.
BTW, "Stopping Power" discussions can go on for decades, and have been researched actively for over 100 years now.
It is interesting stuff.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: dparm
http://www.jenjdanna.com/blog/2013/4/2/forensics-101-bullet-wounds-in-bonethe-skull.html
Basically, the bullet can transfer its energy to the bone very easily and this causes it to radiate and fracture the bone in multiple places.
Since everyone is different, it's hard to say whether or not that will incapacitate a person. If you have a high threshold for pain, or are on drugs, it won't necessarily stop you. As always, it's a matter of how you shoot and not really what you shoot.
Exactly. Drugs can be a game changer. I imagine an SSG from a 12-gauge would ventilate enough things to stop the perp though regardless. And if you have a few in the tube, one to the head is definitely going to fix 'em up!
I always think about the Miami "zombie" face eater guy who got shot what, like 6 times before they were able to drop him???
I think instant stopping power is pretty much proportional to round energy from my hunting experience. So a smaller hand gun rounds will not always drop a guy instantly even with an eventually lethal shot. I've got to think something like a 12g slug in the abdomen must be almost an instant stopper everytime.
Agreed, but I think the problem with slugs in a home defence scenario is that they keep going.... Which is why buck shot I think is a more common choice. I was able to illustrate the effects of both rounds in rather graphic detail on a few hard drives and the buck shot just dented the drives. The slug went right on through and kept going...... Worth mentioning is the fact that the SSG made much larger dents and a few penetrations.
I dunno the stance on SSG's for home defence, but I know for destroying things they seem to get the job done
I've never had a pass through with a slug in an animal. They seem to open up quite quickly. But if you miss I think the box of truth guy showed something like 3-4 interior walls eventually stops them... So for home defense, probably SSG is a better idea.
Its all academic for me anyways, I don't store my firearms and ammo so I could access them in a hurry. Since I've had kids I actually lock the doors at night now, but our place isn't a likely target for determined theives. To hard to scope out and we have no signs of being wealthy enough to have objects worth a blind home invasion. The 12 year old atv and chainsaw, and my $400 slug gun are about the only things worth taking!
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: dparm
http://www.jenjdanna.com/blog/2013/4/2/forensics-101-bullet-wounds-in-bonethe-skull.html
Basically, the bullet can transfer its energy to the bone very easily and this causes it to radiate and fracture the bone in multiple places.
Since everyone is different, it's hard to say whether or not that will incapacitate a person. If you have a high threshold for pain, or are on drugs, it won't necessarily stop you. As always, it's a matter of how you shoot and not really what you shoot.
Exactly. Drugs can be a game changer. I imagine an SSG from a 12-gauge would ventilate enough things to stop the perp though regardless. And if you have a few in the tube, one to the head is definitely going to fix 'em up!
I always think about the Miami "zombie" face eater guy who got shot what, like 6 times before they were able to drop him???
I think instant stopping power is pretty much proportional to round energy from my hunting experience. So a smaller hand gun rounds will not always drop a guy instantly even with an eventually lethal shot. I've got to think something like a 12g slug in the abdomen must be almost an instant stopper everytime.
Agreed, but I think the problem with slugs in a home defence scenario is that they keep going.... Which is why buck shot I think is a more common choice. I was able to illustrate the effects of both rounds in rather graphic detail on a few hard drives and the buck shot just dented the drives. The slug went right on through and kept going...... Worth mentioning is the fact that the SSG made much larger dents and a few penetrations.
I dunno the stance on SSG's for home defence, but I know for destroying things they seem to get the job done
I've never had a pass through with a slug in an animal. They seem to open up quite quickly. But if you miss I think the box of truth guy showed something like 3-4 interior walls eventually stops them... So for home defense, probably SSG is a better idea.
Its all academic for me anyways, I don't store my firearms and ammo so I could access them in a hurry. Since I've had kids I actually lock the doors at night now, but our place isn't a likely target for determined theives. To hard to scope out and we have no signs of being wealthy enough to have objects worth a blind home invasion. The 12 year old atv and chainsaw, and my $400 slug gun are about the only things worth taking!
Ever go hunting or talk to people that hunt? Animals get shot all the time through major organs, bone structure, etc. and still manage to sprint away, sometimes for a substantial distance, before collapsing from blood loss or lack of oxygen.
And never underestimate the power of drugs.
And never underestimate the power of drugs.
Originally Posted By: strat81
Ever go hunting or talk to people that hunt? Animals get shot all the time through major organs, bone structure, etc. and still manage to sprint away, sometimes for a substantial distance, before collapsing from blood loss or lack of oxygen.
And never underestimate the power of drugs.
Agreed. Talk to people that hunt wild hogs especially. Pigs are the closest thing to humans in the animal kingdom and have been used by the military before to test lethality in the famous "pig board" trials. I have seen a wild boar take 4 shots of hot 44 magnum jacketed soft points before it stayed down. Unless to shoot it and sever the spine or scramble the brains with a head shot, it is amazing how much anatomy will carry on for the short term. There was a burglar in georgia I believe not so long ago that took 5 38 special rounds point blank to the face and neck and managed to leave the house, get in a car, and drive a block or two before expiring.
Ever go hunting or talk to people that hunt? Animals get shot all the time through major organs, bone structure, etc. and still manage to sprint away, sometimes for a substantial distance, before collapsing from blood loss or lack of oxygen.
And never underestimate the power of drugs.
Agreed. Talk to people that hunt wild hogs especially. Pigs are the closest thing to humans in the animal kingdom and have been used by the military before to test lethality in the famous "pig board" trials. I have seen a wild boar take 4 shots of hot 44 magnum jacketed soft points before it stayed down. Unless to shoot it and sever the spine or scramble the brains with a head shot, it is amazing how much anatomy will carry on for the short term. There was a burglar in georgia I believe not so long ago that took 5 38 special rounds point blank to the face and neck and managed to leave the house, get in a car, and drive a block or two before expiring.
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Originally Posted By: strat81
Ever go hunting or talk to people that hunt? Animals get shot all the time through major organs, bone structure, etc. and still manage to sprint away, sometimes for a substantial distance, before collapsing from blood loss or lack of oxygen.
And never underestimate the power of drugs.
Agreed. Talk to people that hunt wild hogs especially. Pigs are the closest thing to humans in the animal kingdom and have been used by the military before to test lethality in the famous "pig board" trials. I have seen a wild boar take 4 shots of hot 44 magnum jacketed soft points before it stayed down. Unless to shoot it and sever the spine or scramble the brains with a head shot, it is amazing how much anatomy will carry on for the short term. There was a burglar in georgia I believe not so long ago that took 5 38 special rounds point blank to the face and neck and managed to leave the house, get in a car, and drive a block or two before expiring.
That burglar took 5 shots to the face from a .38 and then drove two blocks before calling 911. He survived his injuries.
Originally Posted By: strat81
Ever go hunting or talk to people that hunt? Animals get shot all the time through major organs, bone structure, etc. and still manage to sprint away, sometimes for a substantial distance, before collapsing from blood loss or lack of oxygen.
And never underestimate the power of drugs.
Agreed. Talk to people that hunt wild hogs especially. Pigs are the closest thing to humans in the animal kingdom and have been used by the military before to test lethality in the famous "pig board" trials. I have seen a wild boar take 4 shots of hot 44 magnum jacketed soft points before it stayed down. Unless to shoot it and sever the spine or scramble the brains with a head shot, it is amazing how much anatomy will carry on for the short term. There was a burglar in georgia I believe not so long ago that took 5 38 special rounds point blank to the face and neck and managed to leave the house, get in a car, and drive a block or two before expiring.
That burglar took 5 shots to the face from a .38 and then drove two blocks before calling 911. He survived his injuries.
Stopping power = pulling the trigger until the threat is eliminated, which could be one lucky pull with a 38Special or eight with a 45ACP +P+, there are so many variables that I always recommend that you get a weapon and caliber that you are most comfortable shooting and which you are able to shoot most accur ately quickly.
10mm Auto is a powerful round, but I am very partial to 357SIG.
10mm Auto is a powerful round, but I am very partial to 357SIG.
I carry a .40 on duty. We train (and qualify) at close to medium range. From the holster, 3 timed/rapid shots. Range varies, from 1.5 yds (holding weapon at hip) to 15 yds (aimed fire) and includes firing with support hand only, strong hand only. Great training for actual defensive use as it includes a variety of ranges and weapon grip. In all of them, center mass shooting is the key: greatest chance of hitting target (center of mass is big, and the last part of the body to move, ask a football player or wrestler) as well as greatest chance of removing assailant from the fight (through shock, hydraulic failure, CNS impact).
Any good round to center mass stands a reasonable chance of success, but personally, I will be assessing effect as I am firing - if, after 3 quick shots, he is still in the fight, there will be more rounds expended to stop the threat. Interestingly, latest thinking is 2 to center mass and 1 to head...still 3 quick rounds...but it seems our superiors are concerned about body armor and/or effect of drugs. A good head shot shuts down the CNS instantly. Threat stopped. Previously, though, because of the chance of a miss (heads are small and in motion), we were not training to head shots...interesting shift in philosophy/tactics...
Any good round to center mass stands a reasonable chance of success, but personally, I will be assessing effect as I am firing - if, after 3 quick shots, he is still in the fight, there will be more rounds expended to stop the threat. Interestingly, latest thinking is 2 to center mass and 1 to head...still 3 quick rounds...but it seems our superiors are concerned about body armor and/or effect of drugs. A good head shot shuts down the CNS instantly. Threat stopped. Previously, though, because of the chance of a miss (heads are small and in motion), we were not training to head shots...interesting shift in philosophy/tactics...
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