should my next car be a diesel?

[Tim]

Originally Posted By: motor_oil_madman
Stay away from the 07s and up. They have a the same emission junk that a gas engine has and then some. They are a PITA. There are so many sensors that it's just a matter of time before something goes wrong.


It is just a matter of time before anything mechanical or electrical has an issue.

My '09 TDI has 90k without an issue of any kind. 45mpg average.

I'd buy another in a minute.

 

[Tim]

Originally Posted By: NateDN10
Let's throw some math at this.

Around here, regular gasoline is $3.90/gal, and diesel is $4.15/gal. A 2011 Jetta 2.5, according to the EPA, gets 27 mpg combined, while the TDI gets 34 mpg combined.

2.5L cost per mile is ($3.90/gal) / (27 mi/gal) = $0.144/mi.
TDI cost per mile is ($4.15/gal) / (34 mi/gal) = $0.122/mi.
Therefore the difference is $0.022/mi.

I don't really want to go through trying to option the two as similarly as possible to control for the engine price difference, but let's say it's $1500.

Then the TDI would pay for itself in $1500/$0.022 = 68,000 miles.


The diesel will beat the gasser by more than 7mpg on average. Looking at 2000 or so cars on fuelly (2.5 vs 2.0d) the delta of the means looks to be about 12mpg.

Assuming 27 for the gasser vs the 45 I have averaged over 90k miles, I have saved $4,700 on fuel over 34 months and 90k miles.

All maintenance (after the "free" stuff) up to 120k done right in my garage.

No brainer for me. At 478k miles the car will pay for itself in fuel savings over the 2.5 ($25k).

 

[pidster]

Originally Posted By: motor_oil_madman
Stay away from the 07s and up. They have a the same emission junk that a gas engine has and then some. They are a PITA. There are so many sensors that it's just a matter of time before something goes wrong.


I haven't owned one personally so I'm no expert, but from all I've read this seems to be true. I'd love one of the older diesels without all that emission junk, the old ones would run on a used motor oil and diesel mix without flinching. Black smoke and having to garage it and plug the block heater in all winter is just fine with me, those things would run FOREVER and were simple. Think 1980s Mercedes diesel sedans.

Even the modern emission controlled ones I think are worth it for the fuel savings if you drive a lot, if there was a turbo diesel option for my Ranger I would have paid well for it, it would have saved me hundreds or more likely thousands in fuel in the year and a half I've owned it. Imagine what that adds up to in 15 years of ownership. That would pay for a few emission system repairs, and if you live in an area with no e-testing you can remove all that junk, but don't tell anyone

In the end I'd say if you don't put a lot of mileage on it, go gasoline. If you're a high mileage driver, the diesel makes sense. If you can find a real "creampuff" well-maintained older diesel with no emissions equipment, that's the best call for anyone if you don't mind plugging in the block heater and seeing a little smoke behind you

 

[JimFitzpatrick]

I'm on my second diesel and I'm a true believer...I'll never drive anything else again."Relentless" power...."relentless" is how Jeremy Clarkson described the engine that my BMW featured...and highway fuel economy that approaches 40 mpg.Initial cost is a minus but,IMO,*everything* else is a plus.

 

[Kiwi_ME]

I've owned three diesels out of my list of 18 cars, an 81 Rabbit, an 03 Golf, and an 04 Suzuki SUV (with a Peugeot engine.) I also did undergrad university lab research on alternative fuels for diesel engines way back in '79. As much as I like diesels for their technology and efficiency, unless fuel economy was tops on my list and I did serious annual miles, I'm would tend to avoid them now. The 1.6 gasoline engine in my '09 current car is far more fun to rev out through the gears than any of the diesels were, and despite the reputation of the diesel for low-end torque, I find the gas engine is much more flexible over a wider range of revs than the diesel. It also sounds better, warms up faster, and has dead-simple easily-fixed emissions technology.

Periodic maintenance is all the same these days, that's not an issue. But my mother currently has an 04 BMW 2.0 diesel and it needs a new fuel injector or two, at $1000 a pop, not an uncommon issue with this year.

I always tell people that with diesel engines the "technology" is mostly in the engine, with gasoline engines the technology is mostly in the fuel. Especially here, at the far corner of the earth, I would prefer that someone else is responsible for maintaining the technology.

 

[LargeCarManX2]

Originally Posted By: Johnny
Kind of off topic, but I've always wondered why they refer to "gas mileage" when it's a diesel. Shouldn't it be "diesel mileage"?



The correct term would be :Fuel Mileage:

 

[Gene K]

Diesel

-/+

- Initial Cost
- Fuel Cost
- Maintenance

-/+ Performance (Depends on use and model)

+ Fuel Mileage
+ Longevity
+ Resale

Only you can say what makes sense to you.

Now Im fixing to go off the reservation to trucks because its what I currently drive and use.

Locally cheapest gas and diesel prices are 3.399 and 3.829. I currently own a gasoline powered 1500 in which I average 19.5 mpg and my previous Diesel 2500 was 22 mpg. $0.1743 a mile for gasoline and $0.1740 a mile for diesel. Considering I now only put on 10,000 miles a year, dont tow anything over 5,000 lb anymore and got the 1500 at least $10,000 cheaper than a Diesel 2500 it doesnt make sense for me. Im not going to get back more than the 10,000 difference when I sell it and Im not going to keep it the 30 years to wear out even a gasoline engine.

 

[cowtipper]

YES,YOU SHOULD BY A DIESEL!!!
I have an '05 VW Jetta wagon TDI+ an '05 Jeep Liberty CRD.Both are excellent vehicles!The Jetta get 45-47 mpg winter+50-52 summer.The CRD gets around 25 mpg winter+28-30 summer.Those are just under normal driving.Both get 10k oil changes+have had no problems+are fairly easy(for newer vehicles)to work on.The Jetta cost over $6k less than a prius when I got it,As I was also considering the prius.Both the VW+Liberty are GREAT runners,too.If you think diesels are too"complicated",look under the hood of a new gasser!They are both FAR better than hybrids or plug ins+diesel in my area (SW Ohio)is about .05 more than gas .As far as winter goes,both start easily when not plugged in+great when plugged in.(both have block heaters)

 

[BigJohn]

Granted, my VW Touareg TDI was stickered at nearly $50k....but it is by far....by WAY far....the best vehicle we have ever owned. I love the 400lbs of torque and I love getting 25 miles to the gallon, trudging over 10k mountain passes....and no elevation sickness.

What I want is the BMW X3 Diesel that they have released in Europe. It is AWD and the rig is getting over 50mpg!!!!! The day that one comes to the states, I will keep my Touareg....but the wife's Passat is getting sold.

Check this out: http://www.autospies.com/news/New-BMW-X3-diesel-gets-50-4-mpg-60738/



.

 

[JimFitzpatrick]

I'm on my second diesel and will never go back.To quickly address several of your points

1)Cold starting--> My BMW 335d,on a visit to central Quebec last winter,started like a champ after having sat all night in -31F weather.

2)Finding fuel--> That's only an issue when you're in unfamiliar territory.Finding it on Interstates is easy as it is in populated areas.There's at least one website (by VW) that finds stations in unfamiliar areas.

3)Fuel price-->In winter,fuel is within a few cents of Premium.In summer it's closer to mid-grade.Also,consider that a diesel will get you something like 30% better mileage than its gas powered twin.

4) Maintenance--> Can't really comment on that.

5) Power--> Both my diesels were/are capable of pinning me back in my seat...particularly the BMW (400-425 ft lbs of torque).

 

[CBR.worm]

My mom has an '06 E320 CDI. So far only 90K miles, but no strange maintenance requirements and no drivetrain repairs to date. The power delivery is preferable over my brother's E350 gasser. Gas mileage is excellent. My only complaints abouts the car are the brakes and the engine noise - which is quiet for a diesel, but not very refined sounding compared to a gas engine. When I do trips on the highway I frequently get 34-37 mpg. My brother's identical gas E350 gets about 8 mpg less.

 

[Tim]

Originally Posted By: rg200amp


LOOK at todays diesel maintenance needs.

Water filters, diesel particulate filters.

They require more oil changes as per car maker, more fuel filter chages aswell.

Not to mention winter time issues.


This is nothing new. You know this.



FAIL

No water filter (some ff have separators, but do not add cost)
No maintenance on DPF
10,000 mile oil changes (many of us go closer to the Euro cycle of 30,000 km)
No winter issues with modern diesel (unless you fill up in the summer and try to use untreated diesel during the next winter...which is a fail waiting to happen)

You are correct on one issue....20,000 mile ff changes.

Diesels aren't for everyone or every situation. But let's not misrepresent reality!


Tim

 

[Gene K]

I disagree on a couple of issues.

Sooner or later the DPF will require service. If its not to far gone it can be cleaned (Depending on design) but if its allowed to go to far the differences in temp caused by ash deposits will cause the substrate to fracture and break-up.

Fuel can still be an issue. You fill up when the pump blend is 80/20 (#2/#1) then a couple of weeks later the temp drops to -40. This can definitely cause gelling problems.

 

[ForcedInduction]

I agree that the 05-06 E320 CDI is the car to get. The later Mercedes V6 is a junk purpose-built emissions engine, BMW's are not very reliable, and VW's cars feel cheap.

 

[2cool]

I have an '01 Jetta TDI. Fun to drive, corners well (VW family trait). The diesel gives me 33mpg in town, 44 highway w/4spd. automatic. People on the TDI forums report more w/5spd. manual. The thing to figure is cost per mile.
Here's my method. Given that a diesel is around 25% more efficient than gas, I take the price of regular gas. Subtract it from the price of diesel. Example: Regular is $3.00/gallon, diesel is $3.30; difference is $.30 or 10% over the price of regular. You go farther on a dollar with a diesel than a gasser. It won't pay to have a gasser until diesel $0.75/gallon more than gas.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: Gene K
I disagree on a couple of issues.

Sooner or later the DPF will require service. If its not to far gone it can be cleaned (Depending on design) but if its allowed to go to far the differences in temp caused by ash deposits will cause the substrate to fracture and break-up.

Fuel can still be an issue. You fill up when the pump blend is 80/20 (#2/#1) then a couple of weeks later the temp drops to -40. This can definitely cause gelling problems.

How is DPF service any different than a catalytic converter? The gelling issue is way overblown. Let's hear apples to apples comparisons folks!

 

[2cool]

The thing to keep in mind, which you alluded to, is cost per mile. The costs of maintenance are NOT greater than a gasser. Both OHC designs need a cam drive belt and water pump around 80-100K miles, the gasser should have plugs every 50K mi. If you think you should run them 100K, I have ocean front property in Idaho for ya'. The OCI's are similar, and all the other filters/fluids virtually same.

 

[DR Racing]

Love my 01 TDi and would buy one again. Diesel's are best for people who drive lot's of mpy. If the wife and I only drove 5k per year I would consider a gasser but I would miss all that torque. Now we put 25k per year on the TDi. Dan

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: 2cool
The thing to keep in mind, which you alluded to, is cost per mile. The costs of maintenance are NOT greater than a gasser. Both OHC designs need a cam drive belt and water pump around 80-100K miles, the gasser should have plugs every 50K mi. If you think you should run them 100K, I have ocean front property in Idaho for ya'. The OCI's are similar, and all the other filters/fluids virtually same.


Factory spark plugs at 119,000 miles.

Factory plugs out at 127,000 miles.

Both running fine when I took them out and both vehicles here don't have timing belts...

How much for the property?

(since I don't know what you are comparing to the diesel I'm going with the general statement that plugs can not last past 50k miles. Since unleaded fuel EVERY vehicle I've had go EASY well past 50k miles on plugs)

 

[HTSS_TR]

My 260+k miles '94 LS400 had platinum plugs changed second times at around 210-215k miles. The condition of the replaced plugs were good to very good.

The OEM plugs on E430 was replaced at 80+k miles, the recommended is 5 years/100k miles, it was replaced because of time limit. When I removed the plugs, they all looked very good and could be used for another 30-40k miles.