Shooting at Connecticut Elementary School

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Originally Posted By: Tempest
Quote:
The violence is a symptom, guns or no guns. The problem is cultural. We see it in a border town here as plain as day. You seem so angry and panicky and prone to violence. Take away the guns and you'll be stabbing yourselves.

It is cultural. The vast majority of these nut cases want to be famous. They see all of the fame that previous nut cases get and they desire that.


If you do not mind me asking, Tempest and mechtech2: Presuming this guy had serious mental predilections towards violent behaviour from youth, and *given* that "people kill people, guns don't kill people"; what do you think it is that cultivates the sickness in this man's mind to the point where he does something like this? What things do you think are advisable for the surrounding community to do to either prevent the cultivation of violence or to deal with these people?
 
Originally Posted By: buster
Some people are just defective and don't belong in society.


This.

Let's see what this killer's background was. I just can't even want to think much deeper than the guy was a defect.
 
Originally Posted By: buster
Some people are just defective and don't belong in society.


This. While I mentioned gun control above, this is the main crux of it.

So long as we are afraid of offending people by discussing their issues, parents do their parenting by TV and computer, etc., what else is going to happen?
 
Originally Posted By: xxch4osxx
And who carries a bat around with them on a daily basis?


Huh? I... What?

Originally Posted By: xxch4osxx

Why is it always a fellow Canadian who comes up with the anti-gun responses in matters like this?


I don't know - I thought my responses, all of them in this thread, were trying to underscore that violence is a symptom and that removal of guns wouldn't do much to stem the tide of violence among violent people. It might, though, make the violence less ***efficient***. And I guess this is what makes the debate so muddy. But given that no one here can properly process what has happened, and given that we all are of us full of sadness and anger; and bewildered, maybe arguing about the circumstances (which are more easily understood and processed) on an interent message board is the best we can do at the moment.
 
Originally Posted By: uc50ic4more

If you do not mind me asking, Tempest and mechtech2: Presuming this guy had serious mental predilections towards violent behaviour from youth, and *given* that "people kill people, guns don't kill people"; what do you think it is that cultivates the sickness in this man's mind to the point where he does something like this? What things do you think are advisable for the surrounding community to do to either prevent the cultivation of violence or to deal with these people?

You first have to identify them. The last guy that shot up the college WAS fully identified by a doctor...and still nothing was done. This "nothing" that government is good at is why individuals must be allowed to be armed to protect themselves from aberrant individuals.

Freedom isn't free and it sure as heck isn't safe or assured.
 
Originally Posted By: Donald

I did not propose a solution like banning guns, just stated the current plan is not working. Whats your solution so we stop reading about a bunch of people killed in a school or mall or theater every month.


Ban humans.

Ed
 
Here in Michigan the state just approved legislation that permits carrying a concealed weapon in a church, school, movie theater...pretty much anywhere. I don't believe our founding fathers ever conceived that their intent for the "right to bear arms" would be used to justify this carnage.

The US experienced 11,000 gun-related deaths last year. 11,000. 40% of gun sales are completed with NO BACKGROUND CHECK. The sheer volume of guns out there means that even those who cannot procure a gun (which appears to be rare) know where they can get one (family member, friend or someone else that has guns). A LOT of guns are stolen each year. This is already out of control...and likely to get worse with the likes of the Michigan legislation.

I am NOT for banning guns. I AM for bannning assault weapons, multi-round magazines and clips and weapons not intended for legitimate sport or "self-defense" (the latter accounting for an extremely small percentage of gun use...despite the claims otherwise...additional statistics indicate that many weapons intended for self-defense end up being used for suicide and/or homicide by the purchaser or someone else).

The sheer horror of this act is more than most of us can accept. Children between the ages of 5 and 10...20 of them killed today. The survivors have had their innocence ripped from them by this violent, deranged act. The families, friends and community will never be the same. Incident after incident...horror upon horror...and we cling to our "rights".

I wonder how many of the "guns with no limits" members of Newtown, CT aren't having second thoughts today.

Bombs are difficult to make (and beyond the comprehension and means of most of us)...and knives aren't particularly effective from a distance or for killing lots of people. The claims that "they'll just come up with another way to kill" are ludicrous. Guns provide the quickest, most efficient and most lethal way to kill...bar none. That's why they're used with such devastating effect.

I cannot discuss this event without emotion...sadness, anger, grief for those killed, those exposed to the killings and their families. The inevitable arguments for and against seem unimportant...and meaningless at this point. I do know this...if we are ever to reach a "tipping point" where the continued deaths, mass shootings and senseless killings are to result in ANY attempt to control these weapons...and this isn't it...I don't know what is.
 
"I AM for bannning assault weapons, multi-round magazines and clips and weapons not intended for legitimate sport or "self-defense"

Define "not intended for legitimate sport or self-defense" What exactly does that mean?
 
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Originally Posted By: oilmaven
Here in Michigan the state just approved legislation that permits carrying a concealed weapon in a church, school, movie theater...pretty much anywhere. I don't believe our founding fathers ever conceived that their intent for the "right to bear arms" would be used to justify this carnage.

The US experienced 11,000 gun-related deaths last year. 11,000. 40% of gun sales are completed with NO BACKGROUND CHECK. The sheer volume of guns out there means that even those who cannot procure a gun (which appears to be rare) know where they can get one (family member, friend or someone else that has guns). A LOT of guns are stolen each year. This is already out of control...and likely to get worse with the likes of the Michigan legislation.

I am NOT for banning guns. I AM for bannning assault weapons, multi-round magazines and clips and weapons not intended for legitimate sport or "self-defense" (the latter accounting for an extremely small percentage of gun use...despite the claims otherwise...additional statistics indicate that many weapons intended for self-defense end up being used for suicide and/or homicide by the purchaser or someone else).

The sheer horror of this act is more than most of us can accept. Children between the ages of 5 and 10...20 of them killed today. The survivors have had their innocence ripped from them by this violent, deranged act. The families, friends and community will never be the same. Incident after incident...horror upon horror...and we cling to our "rights".

I wonder how many of the "guns with no limits" members of Newtown, CT aren't having second thoughts today.

Bombs are difficult to make (and beyond the comprehension and means of most of us)...and knives aren't particularly effective from a distance or for killing lots of people. The claims that "they'll just come up with another way to kill" are ludicrous. Guns provide the quickest, most efficient and most lethal way to kill...bar none. That's why they're used with such devastating effect.

I cannot discuss this event without emotion...sadness, anger, grief for those killed, those exposed to the killings and their families. The inevitable arguments for and against seem unimportant...and meaningless at this point. I do know this...if we are ever to reach a "tipping point" where the continued deaths, mass shootings and senseless killings are to result in ANY attempt to control these weapons...and this isn't it...I don't know what is.


Wow. It is folks such as yourself who claim not to be anti gun who will help to bring about the end of gun ownership.
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo
What the heck is an assault weapon?

None of these idiots have used a fully automatic machine gun.


Media label for guns.
If you stabbed somebody with a pencil and they died would it be an assault pencil? How about an assault bat?
 
Originally Posted By: 757guy
Originally Posted By: Donald
Say what you want about gun control, but the current plan is NOT working.

Try telling "guns do not kill people, people do" to one of the parents of the 18 children who were killed.


Mexico has gun control. How's that working for them?

Gun Control is NOT the answer. We need to stop telling every kid how "special" they are from the day they are born. Every kid now gets a trophy, gets a ribbon, or some other award so the child doesn't have to feel bad for not winning.

Children need to be taught to be persistant, work hard, and never give up. Things don't come easy - work hard for what you want. Working hard and achieving want you want is the greatest reward in life.

For many of the kids who were coddled all their life, their message seems to say "I didn't get what I wanted or needed in life, so I'm going to take it out on everyone else."

Say a prayer for those families affected by this tragedy, and pray for the future of every child growing up in today's world.


Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws.
Plato



Right, the victims are all just a number and so it is nothing to worry as others will just reproduce to fill the void left by the lost of these childrens. You really believe in that?

I bet the shooter has mental problem, just like the VT shooter and the Columbine shooter. Regardless, I think gun is an amplifier for both enabling and defending against these kind of incidents. Many mentally unstable people have guns (I'd say more than mentally stable people as a percentage), and it just takes one breakdown for them to start these kind of incidents.
 
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Yet, another very strange situation where initially there is a report of TWO shooters, and then we are told it is only one....

This guy was incredibly lethal for a UNtrained shooter. But they do say (can't deny it) that is appears this was meticulously planned, like a mission. I wonder if the "other" shooter is the "handler" that makes sure the stoolie is given the best chance to have maximum lethal effect?

This once again smells like a "manchurian candidate".

The end game to take away all guns...

Problem, reaction, solution.

Sure enough the controlled media is now constantly spouting that now significant action must be taken...(confiscation of guns)

I agree that teachers should be armed. Perhaps not all but a sprinkling of armed persons through out the school so that there is a good chance that such a gunman can be stopped early and prevent a lot of injury and death.
 
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Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Like in Israel where at least one teacher in a school is armed, but no one knows who.


They are dealing with a different kind of violence than us. They also have a drafted military that all adults (including women) are trained military.

Most of our gun owners in the US don't even practice in the shooting range.
 
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Originally Posted By: Donald
Say what you want about gun control, but the current plan is NOT working.

Try telling "guns do not kill people, people do" to one of the parents of the 18 children who were killed.


It is already illegal to do what the shooter did.
And illegal for many reasons.
The only proven way to prevent or attenuate crime is an armed citizenry. People get polite fast.
Like in Israel where at least one teacher in a school is armed, but no one knows who.


This.

I'm not a huge gun guy, in fact I don't even own anything besides a BB gun. There is a reason that he attacked a school full of defenseless people instead of say a police department full of armed officers.

When others are carrying there is a smaller chance for the situation to escalate. In an active shooter situation, the shooter will try to kill as many people as possible until they are stopped, usually by deadly force. Negotiating with them is usually impossible, and the people in the school are sitting ducks until help arrives. The longer it takes to stop the shooter, the greater number of people killed. When seconds count, the cops are only minutes away. Does this mean everyone in the school should carry? No, but like in Israel having a trained carrier or two in the school will make sure if there is a situation that it can be stopped.

You can make guns as illegal as you want, but that won't stop criminals from obtaining them. Most of the criminals who kill with guns, do so with guns that were purchased illegally and have the serial numbers ground off. Banning guns will just make it harder for good people to fight back.
 
We inevitably compare guns to "pencils and bats" to make ANY opposition to guns seem silly and "unimformed". I'm NOT against guns for sport...their intended use is obvious (although I don't know a lot of hunters who bagged their kill with a handgun). I also don't claim to be a gun expert so those of you who are can flame me all you want. I guess I need to understand why ALL guns should be allowed with NO controls whatsoever. Most people I know are not opposed to responsible gun ownership. We're talking about measures to make access to guns and types of weapons that noone would ever use for sport (especially by the deranged) more difficult.

I expected a reaction...and got it. I don't have to come here for it...just have to mention gun control at a family dinner or public venue around here and I'm besieged in the same way (don't know what you're talking about...only criminals will have guns, etc.). I repeat...I'm not opposed to guns or gun ownership. I'm opposed to the a system that permits gun proliferation where is isn't warranted so easy.
 
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