Seriously, who needs a hybrid?

[bob_ninja]

JC,
Again, if a used compact car fits your needs, then of course a hybrid is not appropriate. Like I said, I drive a $4K Civic while a new Prius here in Canada is north of $30K. Of course I am not going to switch right this moment.

However, I also have a kid, another one on the way. We have -10F and -20F temps in the winter. I cannot risk getting stranded with 2 kids in a compact car in snow on a remote road. So I don't have that option during winter.

I need a newish car that won't break down. I need some space for 2 kids. I need ability to deal with some snow and rain. etc. Then when you compare Prius or a hybrid SUV to convention vehicle the difference is significant, as EKPolk tried to illustrate many times before.

So for you hybrids may not make sense, but for many others they do.

 

[Crusader]

Here is an topic area that hasn't been addressed here- thus far. When I was a volunteer Firefighter and EMT in my county we had extrication training. Yes Jaw of life, hydraulic spreaders shears etc. many pretty cool toys to cut, pull and pry cars with. I of course asked the extrication guru what kind of universal info is available on hybrid cars. There really wasn't anything at that time roughly 2004 or so. I was shocked that there wasn't any decent universal info on it. I hope there is now. There is a fair amount of training on the hazards of air bags deploying when extricating.

Basically this has a chilling effect on being really aggressive when cutting or prying the car from around the trapped occupant. The current from the batteries is a bigger issue with hybrids. It would be a real bummer to cut through the high current circuit off the battery.

It's fairly standard to disconnect the battery on a car that has been wrecked. If there is a delay in prying a victim from the car it could substantially chew into the golden hour of life.

Just thought. Any current Firefighters & EMS here please chime in and give us an update.

 

[javacontour]

bob_ninja,

I can't tell if you are arguing with me or agreeing. I think we are saying the same things, or at least very similar.

However, I get the impression you are arguing with me. Perhaps I perceive incorrectly.

Help me understand please.

 

[ekpolk]

Quote:

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Here is an topic area that hasn't been addressed here- thus far. When I was a volunteer Firefighter and EMT in my county we had extrication training. Yes Jaw of life, hydraulic spreaders shears etc. many pretty cool toys to cut, pull and pry cars with. I of course asked the extrication guru what kind of universal info is available on hybrid cars. There really wasn't anything at that time roughly 2004 or so. I was shocked that there wasn't any decent universal info on it. I hope there is now. There is a fair amount of training on the hazards of air bags deploying when extricating.

Basically this has a chilling effect on being really aggressive when cutting or prying the car from around the trapped occupant. The current from the batteries is a bigger issue with hybrids. It would be a real bummer to cut through the high current circuit off the battery.

It's fairly standard to disconnect the battery on a car that has been wrecked. If there is a delay in prying a victim from the car it could substantially chew into the golden hour of life.

Just thought. Any current Firefighters & EMS here please chime in and give us an update.

---

Really, this isn't that big of a deal. Just don't cut one of the couple big, fat, flourescent orange cables that run under the driver's side of the car (and which are enclosed in a flat white plactic conduit). They're a lot easier to see and avoid than a fuel line in any other car. And like modern cars' fuel systems, the hybrids have safety shut off systems to protect everyone after an impact.

So don't stand barefoot in a puddle of saltwater while cutting carelessly on the underside of a Prius, and you should be fine...

 

[Master ACiD]

yeah its not like they run the battery cable through the doors and a piller and roof.
the cable is probably in the floorboards somwhere. no big deal.

 

[ekpolk]

No, really, the cables run in a very distinct whit-ish plastic conduit/tray that runs under the floor pan, approximately under the driver's left buttock. Here's a very rough photo I just snapped under the car. You can see the orange color of the cables through the partly opaque whit-ish plastic.

 

[Crusader]

Google search of: extrication hazards of hybrid cars

 

[Crusader]

Personally I actually like the hybrid concept being a tech nerd gadget type myself. However I'm not convinced that a new Civic Hybrid is cost effective when compared to a Civic LX for thousands less - especially when Honda could make a higher mpg gas only car now. I've noted lots of comparisons of facts and figures that really don't fairly revel the real world costs.

I tend to keep my vehicles far longer than most of the population. I'm the original owner of a 254,000+ miles Civic now and It's very likely that I will still be driving it when it rolls over to 400,000 miles. I also do 98+% of my own maintenance. What will the repair cost be with a Prius, Insight or Civic Hybrid etc. when it rolls into 350,000 miles under my ownership vs. the owner who goes to the dealer for all their maintenance needs? I'm talking real world long term cost of operation. I really want to know.

I'll conclude with my last point. Honda made a Civic VX Hatchback 92-95 that produced some excellent MPG numbers all with gas power. Some owners have been able to get low to mid 50's Hwy. 96-2000 Honda produced a HX Coupe that made decent but lesser mpg numbers with more hp 119 to be exact. Honda also made a HX Civic for the 2001-2005 generation. 2006 & 2007 no HX. Why can't Honda produce a 5 door wagon hatchback Civic with the old VX 92 hp motor that would deliver 40 mpg city and 50+ hwy. They can do it - but they won't.

Even if the Hybrids turn out to be cost effective long term why not just deliver a regular gas or diesel non hybrid that deliver the same hwy mpg? For thousands less than the hybrid? So my point is if Honda produced such a car I feel the sale of the hybrid would be damaged. I've called Honda and expressed my views. I'm sure it feel on deaf ears - I doubt if it went past the poor girl who heard my rant.

I would really like to get the ear of some higher ups and get some answers. This is not about what suits me or my fancy. Just the facts on operational costs.

 

[ekpolk]

Quote:

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Google search of: extrication hazards of hybrid cars

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Extracted from the 1st responder site, at the second link in said google search:

Quote:

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"There's a lot of lot of misinformation out there," he said.

"I get letters and e-mails all the time from departments that say things like, 'If we have a hybrid vehicle we’ll call the power company before we touch it,' which is just ridiculous."

The biggest fear, and myth, said Hoffman, is the risk of electrocution.

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I was pleasantly surprised to see that while it's still there, there was less hysteria than I expected.

 

[ekpolk]

Quote:

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Personally I actually like the hybrid concept being a tech nerd gadget type myself. However I'm not convinced that a new Civic Hybrid is cost effective when compared to a Civic LX for thousands less - especially when Honda could make a higher mpg gas only car now. I've noted lots of comparisons of facts and figures that really don't fairly revel the real world costs.

I tend to keep my vehicles far longer than most of the population. . . .

---

As I've said before, buyers need to do the math for themselves, in a way that realistically reflects their driving habits and needs. For me, compared to my last car, I'm saving over $2000 {EDIT: per year} in fuel costs alone, thus, my recapture period is very short, especially when you factor in that I bought a used Prius. For more "normal" drivers, break even on the extra cost of the car is probably somewhere between two and four years. As for repairs, the cars are proving very, very reliable. In the Toyota cars, you get the extra hybrid equipment, but you also get a transmission that's mechanically very simple, when compared to a modern automatic. And you can factor in things like the Prius having no starter or alternator, which are common maintenance annoyances on older cars. The rest of the car is, well, pretty much just a car.

 

[bob_ninja]

Quote:

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bob_ninja,

I can't tell if you are arguing with me or agreeing. I think we are saying the same things, or at least very similar.

However, I get the impression you are arguing with me. Perhaps I perceive incorrectly.

Help me understand please.

---

I do agree that small compact cars with smaller less than 2L engines can be almost as efficient as most hybrids. Therefore, you can always drive them at a much lower cost, especially when buying used.

However, I also agree with EKPolk that Prius is much bigger and therefore suitable for families that need more space and a compact is not appropriate. I drive accross the street to day care with my 2 year old kid, so he just sits in front. I have a 3 door hatchback. Now if I had to get him into the back seat ... forget it. No way. Even with all 4 doors, rear seats are very small in compacts. So for people with kids and dogs and cats and etc. you need something bigger and hybrid is far more appealing when comared to larger cars.

So I guess I agree with you more or less.

 

[Cutehumor]

how many mpg would a honda civic diesel hybrd get?

 

[Crusader]

Quote:

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how many mpg would a honda civic diesel hybrd get?

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Diesel Hybrid - probably 15 to 20% more efficient than gas. Due to glow plugs and cold start issues etc. I'm not sure if it would worth the trouble . . . or work as well as a gas engine. Honda has plans to market a diesels for 2009 . . . . http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_44/b4007079.htm

Yet again I ask why not bring back the old VX Civic V-tec gas motor tuned for MPG and give us all a 5 door hatch wagon. Well . . . it would hurt sales of their upcoming diesel possibly.

 

[Lonnie]

My biggest problem with the Prius is that the state of California had a sticker program to allow solo drivers of low emission vehicles to drive in car pool lanes. They put out a lot of publicity about it and attracted a lot of people to buy new cars that would qualify. A lot of people bought those cars like the Prius and Civic Hybrid and they cancelled the program. This was done in large part because the FastTrack program was loosing revenue. That is a progam where you rent a transponder and are allowed to drive is FastTrack lanes along with the cars with more than one person on board, a car pool car. I think about that every now and then when I'm parked on the freeway.

 

[gedcruise]

Well, Honda offered two generations of tall five door Civic wagons. We had two of the first gen, and they were great cars in every way, to my tastes, at least.
I drove one to work for about 60K, and it could average 40 mpg on its 1.5 with the 5 spd. There was ample room for four plus bags, and the car was the perfect size for a family of four. There was even ample room behind the rear seats (they were separate, and had recline!) for our Great Pyrenees, with our bags riding on the roof rack.
Problem was, the demand just wasn't there. Civic wagon sales were actually lower than those of the Corvette.
We don't view practical utility in quite the same way as the Europeans do. If we did, the Mazda 5 would be a smash hit (it's not), and the first gen Ody (really a tall Accord wagon) would have been as well (it wasn't).

 

[Cutehumor]

Interesting article, talked about a civic diesel in Europe that they are thinking of bringing over here. I read somewhere Honda was talking about an accord diesel too. looks like the diesel vs hybrid wars is about to start

 

[XS650]

Quote:

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Interesting article, talked about a civic diesel in Europe that they are thinking of bringing over here. I read somewhere Honda was talking about an accord diesel too. looks like the diesel vs hybrid wars is about to start

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Honda has had an Accord diesel for a few years in Europe. It gets good reviews on performance, economy and civility.

The Euro Accord is sold here as Acura TSX, but we don't get the diesel.