Semiconductor tariffs

[Wireman1987]

wonder if this will be the rise of auto prices again

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politic...conductor-industry-rate-announced-within-week

 

[KrisZ]

I think it was a very smart move. China showed its true colors and unwillingness to co-operate and it sent a clear message to other countries that if China can oppose US, the largest consumer market in the world, in such an aggressive manner, they will do it to anybody else. It also showed that China's aggression is only held back by US and they hopefully have realized that their very security lies with US, not China.
The "experts" thought the rest of the world would rally around China, when in fact the opposite is happening, and I'm glad to see it.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

I think it was a very smart move. China showed its true colors and unwillingness to co-operate and it sent a clear message to other countries that if China can oppose US, the largest consumer market in the world, in such an aggressive manner, they will do it to anybody else. It also showed that China's aggression is only held back by US and they hopefully have realized that their very security lies with US, not China.
The "experts" thought the rest of the world would rally around China, when in fact the opposite is happening, and I'm glad to see it.

It would be great if the person creating the tariffs wasn't trying to stop Micron from building factories here in the USA ...

It would be pretty awesome if we could start making those chips here. It's a miniscule amount in the grand scheme of things, but anything is something! It takes the heat off of Taiwan, too, because that's the only thing that China wants with them.

 

[supton]

It would be pretty awesome if we could start making those chips here.

We never stopped. It's just that a majority are made overseas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabrication_plants
You arrange by country and find that there are a number of foundries in the USA.

Quick look isn't finding packaging however. Test has to slot in there too, that can take up floor space.

 

[buster]

The German billionaire who owns Politico and Business Insider said he is “more optimistic than ever” that the US and Europe can establish a trade alliance to take on China.

 

[Cujet]

Yesterday I was driving the F-Type Jaguar the hour long trip back from PHK airport yesterday with the top down, the music on, and the sun at my back. My point, the simple pleasures of driving a car with analog gauges, a conventional (sporty) automatic and great behavior is something really lost in today's world of Apple car play, integrated Alexa and self driving nanny features.

Sure, the Jag is computer controlled like all modern vehicles. But it does not have the array of connectivity and nanny features that require 522 different processors. And what little it does have (crummy moving map), it could do without.

I've given a lot of thought to disabling all these nanny features on my new F150. It has automatic headlights/highbeams. I needed highbeams and it refused to keep them on (due to sign reflections). Despite pushing, holding and double tapping the stalk. Give me control and leave the AI out of it.

There is a reason enthusiasts love the old Porsche 911: We really don't need the excessive complexity.

 

[JeffKeryk]

The Chips and Science Act passed in 2022 with broad support. This is a joint effort (and cost) between the US and TSMC, the #1 chip maker.
There have been a number of setbacks, primarily shortage of qualified American technical talent.

This is the most high tech of the high tech; it is not simply putting up walls and cranking out chips.
Semiconductor Manufacturing is no small task. 5nm nodes for the win!

 

[SwampSurvivor]

We never stopped. It's just that a majority are made overseas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabrication_plants
You arrange by country and find that there are a number of foundries in the USA.

Quick look isn't finding packaging however. Test has to slot in there too, that can take up floor space.

That list might actually be out of date. There's at least one Chip plant in Marcy, NY. Or there was.

Central NY is a giant swamp. With an overabundance of water. Ideal for chip manufacturing

 

[supton]

Semiconductor Manufacturing is no small task.

Very true.

Am reminded of something: when an IC maker goes from one foundry to another, the product has to be qualified to run there. Each foundry can be different in its yields and performance. You'd think you'd get the same product from different TSMC foundries (maybe you do) but go from one foundry to another, and it's a different process. I'm not sure how "the same" they are, other than, I've heard not.

That list might actually be out of date. There's at least one Chip plant in Marcy, NY. Or there was.

Central NY is a giant swamp. With an overabundance of water. Ideal for chip manufacturing

You may well be right, things are always change. Just wanted to find the quickest listing of foundries in the US as I know it's greater than zero.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Very true.

Am reminded of something: when an IC maker goes from one foundry to another, the product has to be qualified to run there. Each foundry can be different in its yields and performance. You'd think you'd get the same product from different TSMC foundries (maybe you do) but go from one foundry to another, and it's a different process. I'm not sure how "the same" they are, other than, I've heard not.

My career was for the most part in SEMI. A critical document was the customer supplied spec, or Tool Description document. There was no form; the customer requirements were free form. One fab might include things that others did not.

It is also important to understand that the chips in a Honda, or whatever, require less capability than say an Apple cell phone chip. The TSMC foundry will not make car chips. Last I knew, Japan's Renesas was big in automotive chip making.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Very true.

Am reminded of something: when an IC maker goes from one foundry to another, the product has to be qualified to run there. Each foundry can be different in its yields and performance. You'd think you'd get the same product from different TSMC foundries (maybe you do) but go from one foundry to another, and it's a different process. I'm not sure how "the same" they are, other than, I've heard not.


You may well be right, things are always change. Just wanted to find the quickest listing of foundries in the US as I know it's greater than zero.

https://www.wolfspeed.com/company/about/locations/ Found it.

That's a whole thing in and of itself ... but mohawk valley politics doesn't need discussion here.

 

[The Critic]

This is the most high tech of the high tech; it is not simply putting up walls and cranking out chips.
Semiconductor Manufacturing is no small task. 5nm nodes for the win!

Precisely. Without getting political, it isn't as simple as putting up a building and hiring folks to make the product. Not only do you need a viable labor pool, but the labor costs have to make sense or else you'll price yourself out of the target audience of the end product.

 

[supton]

It is also important to understand that the chips in a Honda, or whatever, require less capability than say an Apple cell phone chip. The TSMC foundry will not make car chips.

First is true, not sure on second. I'm not sure what voltage limits TSMC has but I suspect they have multiple processes, which may include high voltage rulesets. High voltage and/or high current, that limits the ability to use small geometries. But not all auto IC's have to be 12V or 48V tolerant. I'm sure the memory chips in the ECU and/or radio are not.

But yes, auto IC's can be very niche. Need to do limited things, but real time, not as gated by OS. But they also keep upping what the chips need to do, and doing it with less (power or cost or size). Voltage buck/boost, LED drivers, gate driver, motor driver--the list goes on for high voltage and/or high current. Lots of cool devices in cars.

Need to make sure we in-shore PCB manufacturing too. There's some good shops here already, but I'm not sure where the raw PCB materials (cores, prepregs, foils, solder mask, etc) are sourced from. And most of the chips go onto a PCB when used (most not all).

 

[JeffKeryk]

The biggest problem is talent; the US simply does not have it. Until we value education, we will be highly dependent on others.

 

[The Critic]

Until we value education, we will be highly dependent on others.

One could argue that we do value education, but just not in the areas that are critical to making us competitive.

 

[JeffKeryk]

First is true, not sure on second. I'm not sure what voltage limits TSMC has but I suspect they have multiple processes, which may include high voltage rulesets. High voltage and/or high current, that limits the ability to use small geometries. But not all auto IC's have to be 12V or 48V tolerant. I'm sure the memory chips in the ECU and/or radio are not.

But yes, auto IC's can be very niche. Need to do limited things, but real time, not as gated by OS. But they also keep upping what the chips need to do, and doing it with less (power or cost or size). Voltage buck/boost, LED drivers, gate driver, motor driver--the list goes on for high voltage and/or high current. Lots of cool devices in cars.

Need to make sure we in-shore PCB manufacturing too. There's some good shops here already, but I'm not sure where the raw PCB materials (cores, prepregs, foils, solder mask, etc) are sourced from. And most of the chips go onto a PCB when used (most not all).

You are correct; I stand corrected. I did a little research, and TSMC has swiftly gained traction in the automotive chip sector. It was not this way when I was in SEMI.

You will remember the Renesas fire in '21 that further hurt the chip supply chain to Honda, Toyota, Nissan and others.

 

[4WD]

One could argue that we do value education, but just not in the areas that are critical to making us competitive.

Yup, and unless you pay well - you don’t get the few best and brightest out there … I’m fortunate to work with some amazing 1 to 5 year engineers I find far easier to mentor - and I have been through several of these so called “Gens” …

 

[supton]

You will remember the Renesas fire in '21 that further hurt the chip supply chain to Honda, Toyota, Nissan and others.

I did not, those were crazy times in the industry. I recall our CEO talking about how the company was working to get more allotments of wafers for production of our own chips, presumably for those auto makers (they usually buy from Denso, Bosch, etc--those names I hear more often).

 

[Astro14]

The biggest problem is talent; the US simply does not have it. Until we value education, we will be highly dependent on others.

The US is among the best countries by percentage of population who has a bachelor’s or higher. Russia and a few others are a bit higher.

But a bachelor’s in English literature doesn’t get you a job in tech.

Where we lag is in technical education.

 

[4WD]

The US is among the best countries by percentage of population who has a bachelor’s or higher. Russia and a few others are a bit higher.

But a bachelor’s in English literature doesn’t get you a job in tech.

Where we lag is in technical education.

Yep. My friend’s daughter (from our panhandle) is crushing aerospace engineering at Purdue … They are lined up at her doorstep - not the other way around …