Scout EV debuted today!

[JHZR2]

I understand why someone would arrive at that conclusion and I find that completely reasonable, it's just not what I would choose for myself and I see it as a massive turn off. If I didn't think the infrastructure fit my charging needs(it does for me) I would just drive a smaller ICE vehicle that is efficient(which I also do).

Thing with that logic is that even smaller vehicles like the bmw i3 used this approach. It was purely idiocy in tax law and DOE/EPA/DOT that made them use stupid charging logic that severely affected its usability.

Doesn't that depend on your use case?

Not really, no. We’ve long established that commercial chargers are extremely expensive per mile, and therefore horrible value, and EV ranges are just plain poor.

As much as we can handwave about having multiple vehicles, never driving far, etc., reality is that the typical driver wants to be able to cost effectively drive where they want when they want, and operate with autonomy. A small range extender APU helps with that a lot, while not being a full-on PHEV.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Not really, no. We’ve long established that commercial chargers are extremely expensive per mile, and therefore horrible value, and EV ranges are just plain poor.

As much as we can handwave about having multiple vehicles, never driving far, etc., reality is that the typical driver wants to be able to cost effectively drive where they want when they want, and operate with autonomy. A small range extender APU helps with that a lot, while not being a full-on PHEV.

Well, that's not my use case. My new EV has never been on a Supercharger and my old one was rarely on one.

I don't have the numbers, but I have to believe most charging is done at home. I guarantee you you spend more time gassing up then I do charging, and you spend far more for fuel.

Isn't the average daily use something like 35 miles per day?

I suggest any vehicle choice depends on use case.

 

[Torrid]

Thing with that logic is that even smaller vehicles like the bmw i3 used this approach. It was purely idiocy in tax law and DOE/EPA/DOT that made them use stupid charging logic that severely affected its usability.



Not really, no. We’ve long established that commercial chargers are extremely expensive per mile, and therefore horrible value, and EV ranges are just plain poor.

As much as we can handwave about having multiple vehicles, never driving far, etc., reality is that the typical driver wants to be able to cost effectively drive where they want when they want, and operate with autonomy. A small range extender APU helps with that a lot, while not being a full-on PHEV.

I see a lot of opinion and we come to completely different conclusions. Living with an EV makes it pretty easy to see if it works instead of making assumptions.

Almost no one would need to use public charging which is why I’ll probably never buy another ICE vehicle. Even if I do need to use public charging to the tune of gasoline for a car that gets 35mpg, it won’t have $1000 40k miles services to have even batter performance.

You’re convinced of your opinion and so am I. I question which one is more informed by real life experience though.

 

[OVERKILL]

I see a lot of opinion and we come to completely different conclusions. Living with an EV makes it pretty easy to see if it works instead of making assumptions.

Almost no one would need to use public charging which is why I’ll probably never buy another ICE vehicle. Even if I do need to use public charging to the tune of gasoline for a car that gets 35mpg, it won’t have $1000 40k miles services to have even batter performance.

You’re convinced of your opinion and so am I. I question which one is more informed by real life experience though.

I think if almost nobody would need to use public charging, we wouldn't have the proliferation of public charging we do, and it wouldn't have been necessary to build it out. EV's in a "charge at home" scenario don't work for people in apartments or potentially rental situations, depending on their landlord. Condos may also be affected in the same manner.

The RAMCHARGER REx is an approach to basically bridge all of these areas. It has a 92kWh battery, which is large for a non-BEV vehicle, with a combined range of up to 690 miles (1,110km). You can charge it like a PHEV if you want, or just use the onboard generator. So you can use it like a hybrid or a full EV if you want (with range extender) depending on your situation.

 

[daves87rs]

FYI.. a hybrid model is planned.

That might convince me to get one. Not going to lie, love the looks of these…..

 

[Torrid]

I think if almost nobody would need to use public charging, we wouldn't have the proliferation of public charging we do, and it wouldn't have been necessary to build it out. EV's in a "charge at home" scenario don't work for people in apartments or potentially rental situations, depending on their landlord. Condos may also be affected in the same manner.

The RAMCHARGER REx is an approach to basically bridge all of these areas. It has a 92kWh battery, which is large for a non-BEV vehicle, with a combined range of up to 690 miles (1,110km). You can charge it like a PHEV if you want, or just use the onboard generator. So you can use it like a hybrid or a full EV if you want (with range extender) depending on your situation.

While I think the Ramcharger is a cool idea, these insanely complex expensive vehicles aren’t sustainable. If only we had small fuel efficient ICE options prevalent.

People still travel with EVs which is the reason for public charging. I can count on one hand how many times we’ve used public charging in 2 years.

 

[JeffKeryk]

IMO, the Ramcharger is overly complex and is probably a solution to a problem that does not exist outside of a small set of vehicles.

 

[OVERKILL]

While I think the Ramcharger is a cool idea, these insanely complex expensive vehicles aren’t sustainable. If only we had small fuel efficient ICE options prevalent.

People still travel with EVs which is the reason for public charging. I can count on one hand how many times we’ve used public charging in 2 years.

I mean, it's just an EV with a generator, not much more complex than an EV really. Yes, it's expensive, but the reason we don't have lots of small fuel efficient ICE options is because people don't buy them. The folks talking about a stick with crank windows and manual locks and driving it for 20 years are not the target demographic for auto manufacturers. They want high turnover consumers and those people tend to be drawn to the most features for your buck and seem to gravitate toward trucks and SUV's.

 

[OVERKILL]

IMO, the Ramcharger is overly complex and is probably a solution to a problem that does not exist outside of a small set of vehicles.

It's a fancy PHEV with the EV drivetrain, rather than a conventional drivetrain, so the engine is just a generator. It's actually arguably simpler than your typical hybrid where the wheels are powered by electric, gas, or both, and featuring a traditional transmission, transfer case...etc.

Furthermore, the generator is just the bloody port-injected Pentastar. No turbos, no direct injection...etc. Pretty simple.

 

[Torrid]

I mean, it's just an EV with a generator, not much more complex than an EV really. Yes, it's expensive, but the reason we don't have lots of small fuel efficient ICE options is because people don't buy them. The folks talking about a stick with crank windows and manual locks and driving it for 20 years are not the target demographic for auto manufacturers. They want high turnover consumers and those people tend to be drawn to the most features for your buck and seem to gravitate toward trucks and SUV's.

CAFE killed them. When a car has to get 48 mpg but a crossover can qualify as a light truck to get 35mpg, car companies just stop making cars. It made good cars expensive so people want more car for their money. More car means crossovers these days. Everyone is steered very hard by policies. So much so they don’t even realize it. They think it’s free will.

There’s no money in a stripper car. It takes being a hybrid to meet standard. That or paying penalties to be less efficient which has made the affordable performance car nonexistent.

 

[JeffKeryk]

It's a fancy PHEV with the EV drivetrain, rather than a conventional drivetrain, so the engine is just a generator. It's actually arguably simpler than your typical hybrid where the wheels are powered by electric, gas, or both, and featuring a traditional transmission, transfer case...etc.

Good point. Having said that, I feel the same way about hybrids; overly complex.
Absolutely hybrid technology makes a ton of sense for many people.
I suggest the Model 3 RWD LR (EPA 363 mile range), if you can charge at home on a 240v circuit, just might make a lot of sense as well.

It will be interesting to see the various technologies evolve. I love my Tundra and GS. But the Model 3 life, for me, is just so simple.

 

[OVERKILL]

CAFE killed them. When a car has to get 48 mpg but a crossover can qualify as a light truck to get 35mpg, car companies just stop making cars. It made good cars expensive so people want more car for their money. More car means crossovers these days. Everyone is steered very hard by policies. So much so they don’t even realize it. They think it’s free will.

There’s no money in a stripper car. It takes being a hybrid to meet standard. That or paying penalties to be less efficient which has made the affordable performance car nonexistent.

I mean, they exist. The Honda FIT and the Yaris (up to 2020?), the Nissan Versa (still in production)...etc.

However:
Fit sales appear to have peaked in 2008, heading downhill from there. 2020 saw 32,488 units sold.
Versa sales appear to have peaked in 2015, heading downhill from there. 2023 saw 24,807 units sold.
Yaris sales appear to have peaked in 2008, heading downhill from there. 2019 saw 21,916 units sold.

In total, over 16 years, Toyota sold 594,780 Yaris cars in the USA. Ford sold 761,455 F-series trucks in 2023. Heck, BMW sold 82,373 X5's in 2022! The small cars just don't sell in volumes high enough to warrant their production.

 

[Torrid]

I mean, they exist. The Honda FIT and the Yaris (up to 2020?), the Nissan Versa (still in production)...etc.

However:
Fit sales appear to have peaked in 2008, heading downhill from there. 2020 saw 32,488 units sold.
Versa sales appear to have peaked in 2015, heading downhill from there. 2023 saw 24,807 units sold.
Yaris sales appear to have peaked in 2008, heading downhill from there. 2019 saw 21,916 units sold.

In total, over 16 years, Toyota sold 594,780 Yaris cars in the USA. Ford sold 761,455 F-series trucks in 2023. Heck, BMW sold 82,373 X5's in 2022! The small cars just don't sell in volumes high enough to warrant their production.

Because they're hobbled by CAFE. Most are junk. Yet a F-150 can have enough power to rip the doors off of any muscle car 10 years or older for the standard model. All I hear is people complain about how expensive new cars are. All that means is that less people are probably buying new vehicles than ever before. I can't recall seeing an older fleet of cars on the road than any time in my life.

As someone who loved cars since before I could walk I can't think of a market I could care less about these days. It's sad. Maybe people don't want the small cars, but they're the ones shooting themselves in the foot while complaining about the cost.

I would like to see what the sales numbers are like on the base Jetta. I don't know what happened, but these things are everywhere lately an they must be selling a boatload with the amount I see in temp tags. It doesn't seem like they have much competition based on the numbers you quote. It's a car that does better than 40mpg in manual being pure ICE which is a rare combination.

 

[OVERKILL]

Because they're hobbled by CAFE. Most are junk. Yet a F-150 can have enough power to rip the doors off of any muscle car 10 years or older for the standard model. All I hear is people complain about how expensive new cars are. All that means is that less people are probably buying new vehicles than ever before. I can't recall seeing an older fleet of cars on the road than any time in my life.

Well yes, the interest rates have dampened new car sales, that's for sure.

As someone who loved cars since before I could walk I can't think of a market I could care less about these days. It's sad. Maybe people don't want the small cars, but they're the ones shooting themselves in the foot while complaining about the cost.

Yes, I think that's an accurate summation. People that might be better off in small cars don't want them, so they don't sell unfortunately.

I would like to see what the sales numbers are like on the base Jetta. I don't know what happened, but these things are everywhere lately an they must be selling a boatload with the amount I see in temp tags. It doesn't seem like they have much competition based on the numbers you quote. It's a car that does better than 40mpg in manual being pure ICE which is a rare combination.

That's an interesting one. Jetta sales figures haven't been great the last few years, but have picked-up for 2024 with 52,912 units sold so far apparently, and that's without the last quarter reported.

 

[Torrid]

Well yes, the interest rates have dampened new car sales, that's for sure.

Yes, I think that's an accurate summation. People that might be better off in small cars don't want them, so they don't sell unfortunately.

That's an interesting one. Jetta sales figures haven't been great the last few years, but have picked-up for 2024 with 52,912 units sold so far apparently, and that's without the last quarter reported.

I did see a report about VW doing well lately and we all know they've had a very rocky, peaky history. Golf R sales have been way up too which is nuts for a $48k hatchback, but they've been making a lot more small cars this year than they have for awhile. To be fair they backed off likely because they gave very large discounts in previous years for too much inventory. Maybe the small segment is benefitting them right now.

Really if all I wanted was to get from A to B and I wasn't the gear head I am a $23k Jetta is very compelling. Even the top end GTI equivalent GLI is $35k loaded and just got a redesign for 2025. Unfortunately we lost the base Golf years ago in the US. I will say as a car enthusiast I'm glad there's enough of us to keep the GTI and Golf R coming to the US. The lady that's in charge of US performance models has fought hard for the manual. She lost that battle for 2025 for everything but the Jetta. I've seen a few videos with her. She's seriously awesome.

It's just hard watching this market shrink. Vehicles get more expensive and it's understandable that people want more for their money and are not looking for novelty in a $50k family vehicle. I understand why a Golf is considered too small as a family vehicle. We're just one of very few countries that view the Golf this way. I don't understand why the F150 is necessary as a family car. It's laughable at best and definitely an ego stroke. People aren't taking a full camping kit and trailer to the Piggly Wiggly. It still has the same amount of seats as a base Golf or Jetta.

 

[4WD]

Maybe some just like the U in SUV - we sure do and the HVAC reaches the back where “curbside” groceries are kept cool whilst we stay cool too … And with a big WeatherTech mat - mulch, pavers, large packages, dog food, pot plants, luggage, dogs in carriers, stuff to goodwill, and moving college kids etc - all at the right height …
Some have better payload than a sedan’s trunk too.

 

[JHZR2]

Well, that's not my use case. My new EV has never been on a Supercharger and my old one was rarely on one.

I don't have the numbers, but I have to believe most charging is done at home. I guarantee you you spend more time gassing up then I do charging, and you spend far more for fuel.

Isn't the average daily use something like 35 miles per day?

I suggest any vehicle choice depends on use case.

Your point is practically irrelevant because you have how many other vehicles? So if you wanted to drive across country tomorrow, woukd you drive the eV, or something else?

Same with your claims on fuel cost, once the actual fair share of taxes and whatnot get paid. While it’s great that you have solar or whatever, that’s not everybody in the country.

Your comments are akin to a “let them eat cake” mindset.

Sure, scooting around town it can work, and you can charge from home. But that’s a common, but small fraction of use cases.

Most family units have one or two cars, want maximum utility for minimum cost. Not a subcompact sedan thst can’t go any practical distance.

 

[JHZR2]

I did see a report about VW doing well lately and we all know they've had a very rocky, peaky history. Golf R sales have been way up too which is nuts for a $48k hatchback, but they've been making a lot more small cars this year than they have for awhile. To be fair they backed off likely because they gave very large discounts in previous years for too much inventory. Maybe the small segment is benefitting them right now.

Really if all I wanted was to get from A to B and I wasn't the gear head I am a $23k Jetta is very compelling. Even the top end GTI equivalent GLI is $35k loaded and just got a redesign for 2025. Unfortunately we lost the base Golf years ago in the US. I will say as a car enthusiast I'm glad there's enough of us to keep the GTI and Golf R coming to the US. The lady that's in charge of US performance models has fought hard for the manual. She lost that battle for 2025 for everything but the Jetta. I've seen a few videos with her. She's seriously awesome.

It's just hard watching this market shrink. Vehicles get more expensive and it's understandable that people want more for their money and are not looking for novelty in a $50k family vehicle. I understand why a Golf is considered too small as a family vehicle. We're just one of very few countries that view the Golf this way. I don't understand why the F150 is necessary as a family car. It's laughable at best and definitely an ego stroke. People aren't taking a full camping kit and trailer to the Piggly Wiggly. It still has the same amount of seats as a base Golf or Jetta.

An F150 is as idiotic a family car as a Tesla model 3.

Put any real baggage, car seats, etc. and both are about worthless.

 

[Pablo]

Worst minus of each, only one, only ONE allowed.

Add a SINGLE worst trait of each vehicle type. Single means ONE (1):

EV:
IC:

Go!

Not one person here will put only one negative for each. Bet you a coffee.

 

[Torrid]

An F150 is as idiotic a family car as a Tesla model 3.

Put any real baggage, car seats, etc. and both are about worthless.

What do you suggest, a bus?