San Diego Citation Crash

Owen Lucas said:
All of these plane crashes lately and the deep knowledge required (as exemplified in this forum) to operate one, are making me think twice about getting a license. It seems that, unless you are flying in an airliner from a large US company, anything else, including flying private, is pretty risky.
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I own and fly a plane. It's not anywhere near the safety level of Professional, US based airlines. Quite simply, we as a nation got that part right. The equipment, the training, the personnel.

Life is very different in both large and small GA planes. Where the #1 cause of crashes involves some form of poor decision making on the part of the pilot. The good news is that GA pilots can, if they choose, make great choices. Don't go fly when..... (you fill in the blank here)

Mechanical issues are a 5% factor. The rest is pilot.

Today, I had to wait out some serious weather. Yet I made a few new friends during the delay, and waited long enough to have a great flight home. Risk level, low. Plenty of fuel, good weather, alternate airports galore, healthy airplane, gobs of altitude.

Flying May 13.webp
Flying May 2 2025.webp
 
Owen Lucas said:
All of these plane crashes lately and the deep knowledge required (as exemplified in this forum) to operate one, are making me think twice about getting a license. It seems that, unless you are flying in an airliner from a large US company, anything else, including flying private, is pretty risky.
Click to expand...
Agree. I had instrument and commercial ratings and owned a C182. I sold the plane because I felt it was too risky.

My family was more important to me.
 
My recommendation is to not get into flying if you are nervous the more I think about it and to quit flying your own plane if it makes you nervous ( based on something that actually happened or just reading about other accidents wondering if your next ).

We have all had scary driving incidents and we keep doing it ( with our families ) even though it's not as safe as flying.

I forgot about the massive moose I almost collided with about 10 years ago while driving to the airport at night on the highway.

If you don’t trust yourself, don’t be a pilot.
 
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edyvw said:
Ok. So, what you gonna do about it? I mean, based on your posts, you project great knowledge, so what are you doing about it?
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All of the safety information is available at everyone's fingertips, and has been for my entire 40 year aviation career. In fact, simply asking Grok3 to summarize aviation safety issues is a great place to start. From there one can follow each lead and learn more than needed.

I very clearly mentioned the US based airlines as the pinnacle of aviation safety. The equipment has been honed into extreme reliability, capability and yes, performance. US air carrier airmen of all sorts are vetted, very well trained and the vast majority are truly capable. Same goes for conditions and operational locations etc. Airlines understand what is acceptable and what is not.

If you want answers to the risk of GA, a solid look at how the airlines do it would be a great place to start. If your equipment is clearly incapable, then don't use it in poor conditions. Same goes for the training, experience and capability of the crew, the airports used and so on. It really is simple, don't fly if you operate in the 'less than capable' realm.

 
I wouldn’t be flying an IFR approach in IMC unless I had the local altimeter setting for the airport I was landing at.

Not sure if they were flying the LNAV, or LNAV/VNAV approach but I can’t fly a LNAV/VNAV unless we have the latest, local altimeter setting.

Also, we all ( North American airspace ) have the wrong altimeter setting as we descend below 18,000 ( below standard pressure region ) and have to set the correct altimeter setting according to local barometric pressure which ATC provides or we check the altimeter setting on the local airport weather.

There have been crashes caused by setting setting the wrong altimeter, or forgetting to make the change below 18000.

Curious how the avionics ( flashes in the Airbus to warn us to make the change ) in the Cessna helps pilots given this crash had only one pilot and things can get busy and pilots can forget ( 2 pilots can even forget to arm the spoilers with the airlines ).

We check the altimeters 3 times in descent: 18,000 ASL , 10,000 AGL and when the landing gear goes down and the pilot calls for the “landing check” on final approach ( 6 miles from touchdown ).

https://www.flyingmag.com/ntsb-san-diego-crash-aircraft-struck-power-lines/
 
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Exhaustgases said:
What do you suggest? Ideas welcome.
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What do I suggest? You are the one that said there is no excuse!
So, naturally I am asking what are your solutions as it appears to me that you think of yourself as a designated expert on aviation safety. I know a lot of pilots. I went with pilots to a military school. I drinked a lot of alcohol with them over bbq’s etc. When they talk about how their friend died, I ask what happened and how, I never told them “there is no excuse,” unless they say there is no excuse for something.
In my field i use very seldom word “no excuse for something” (though I did use that last year to describe knowledge of one cadet at the air force academy about things not related to flying). But, that is my field, and if I am bothered by something and I think I can do something about it, I go and publish work in the journals related to my field. I don’t come and say “no excuses,” like some entitled teenager.
So, again, you set up a tone with opening post as an expert in the field,and arguing here with actual experts, so based on your professional experience (would be nice to know how many xxxxx flying hours you have on something like Citation or airliner) did you publish some work on this topic? Bcs. I bet some people would like to read and prevent future accidents.
 
Cujet said:
All of the safety information is available at everyone's fingertips, and has been for my entire 40 year aviation career. In fact, simply asking Grok3 to summarize aviation safety issues is a great place to start. From there one can follow each lead and learn more than needed.

I very clearly mentioned the US based airlines as the pinnacle of aviation safety. The equipment has been honed into extreme reliability, capability and yes, performance. US air carrier airmen of all sorts are vetted, very well trained and the vast majority are truly capable. Same goes for conditions and operational locations etc. Airlines understand what is acceptable and what is not.

If you want answers to the risk of GA, a solid look at how the airlines do it would be a great place to start. If your equipment is clearly incapable, then don't use it in poor conditions. Same goes for the training, experience and capability of the crew, the airports used and so on. It really is simple, don't fly if you operate in the 'less than capable' realm.

Click to expand...

How did I end up in your response?
 
Just a civilian pilot said:
I wouldn’t be flying an IFR approach in IMC unless I had the local altimeter setting for the airport I was landing at.

Not sure if they were flying the LNAV, or LNAV/VNAV approach but I can’t fly a LNAV/VNAV unless we have the latest, local altimeter setting.

Also, we all ( North American airspace ) have the wrong altimeter setting as we descend below 18,000 ( below standard pressure region ) and have to set the correct altimeter setting according to local barometric pressure which ATC provides or we check the altimeter setting on the local airport weather.

There have been crashes caused by setting setting the wrong altimeter, or forgetting to make the change below 18000.

Curious how the avionics ( flashes in the Airbus to warn us to make the change ) in the Cessna helps pilots given this crash had only one pilot and things can get busy and pilots can forget ( 2 pilots can even forget to arm the spoilers with the airlines ).

We check the altimeters 3 times in descent: 18,000 ASL , 10,000 AGL and when the landing gear goes down and the pilot calls for the “landing check” on final approach ( 6 miles from touchdown ).

https://www.flyingmag.com/ntsb-san-diego-crash-aircraft-struck-power-lines/
Click to expand...
I always thought that large planes had radar that told them how close they were to the ground. Like when the cockpit voice starts saying 30, 20, 10 during landing.
 
Yes, we have two sources of altitude information but we don’t use radio altimeters for normal ( Category 1 ) ILS or Non precision approaches. We use them for bad weather landings ( Cat 2/3 ).

The radio altimeter only comes alive at 2,500 and below but it points straight down and only tells us how high we are above terrain and because the terrain ( like the hill short final in the San Diego crash ) isn’t flat, it won’t give us advance warning about terrain issues ( Enhanced GPWS will but it’s inhibited during the approach to some degree ) , that’s why terrain clearance in cloud is done using approach plates and the barometric ( ASL, not AGL ) altimeter provided the altimeter setting is correct.

The radio altimeter is accurate enough for the pre programmed Auto callouts ( “1000, 500, one hundred above minimums and minimums” calls “ ) but really only accurate once crossing the paved runway threshold ( flat ) for the Cat 2/3 and standard “ fifty, thirty” auto calls to help pilots know how low they are above the runway in preparation for flare ( when to go to idle and start easing back ).

When I fly to a few mountainous airports ( in cloud ) , I see the radio altimeter start to show how high we are above the uneven terrain once below 2500 above ground but I use the normal , barometric altimeter and approach plate safe altitudes ( both ASL ) to fly a safe IFR approach.
 
Cujet said:
I own and fly a plane. It's not anywhere near the safety level of Professional, US based airlines. Quite simply, we as a nation got that part right. The equipment, the training, the personnel.

Life is very different in both large and small GA planes. Where the #1 cause of crashes involves some form of poor decision making on the part of the pilot. The good news is that GA pilots can, if they choose, make great choices. Don't go fly when..... (you fill in the blank here)

Mechanical issues are a 5% factor. The rest is pilot.

Today, I had to wait out some serious weather. Yet I made a few new friends during the delay, and waited long enough to have a great flight home. Risk level, low. Plenty of fuel, good weather, alternate airports galore, healthy airplane, gobs of altitude.

View attachment 281278View attachment 281280
Click to expand...


I remember when you brought your Cardinal and put lots of TLC into it. (y)
 
Its difficult to find info on synthetic vision that is not like 6 or 8 years old, looks like some big jets use it. Nice
And again how many lives would be saved? Also there was a video about combined using syn vision and enhanced night vision, and then do what I have said combine radar and flir with it as well.




I think this below is just flir, and just look what details can be seen. Again absolutely no excuse for any pilot to fly blind and not see the ground when doing an approach.

 
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Exhaustgases said:
Its difficult to find info on synthetic vision that is not like 6 or 8 years old, looks like some big jets use it. Nice
And again how many lives would be saved? Also there was a video about combined using syn vision and enhanced night vision, and then do what I have said combine radar and flir with it as well.




I think this below is just flir, and just look what details can be seen. Again absolutely no excuse for any pilot to fly blind and not see the ground when doing an approach.

Click to expand...

Even military aircraft crash.

Things will never safe until pilots and passengers have zero zero ejections seats on all commercial jets🤔

In the meantime, let’s ban all night flying and IFR approaches.
 
Exhaustgases said:
High price because they don't sell like cars and houses do. Just like when computers first came out. More units sold lower the price.
And besides what are a plane load of lives worth? And the plane it self? How much did this Citation cost?
Click to expand...
I actually think $400k is a good deal for what this camera can do.
 
Owen Lucas said:
I actually think $400k is a good deal for what this camera can do.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but that is only 1 system that I'd like to see on aircraft. And all combined with synthetic vision, Flir may not see too well through dense fog and clouds but radar will, as well as synthetic vision.
 
This is interesting this is news I never heard about this crash, did anyone else hear about this?

Video explains why the fire was so bad.

 
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