Safety of Small Cars

[eljefino]

Originally Posted By: BuickGN

I was talking about the stereotypical small car driver. They are they're own worst enemy. It's weird how I had a 12 second car when I was 17, that 12 second car is now a 10 second car at the age of 30 and I've never had a wreck in it. When the fast and furious crowd started showing up they were wrecking 17 second FWD Civics left and right. How exactly do you lose control of a 90hp FWD car at the races? I would bet if you tested the IQ of the ricer community it would be signifigantly lower than the rest of the world.


Absolutely. Some cars are just "jerk magnets." Engineering can't solve this. Insurance rates are set by this which inevitably involves some "cool factor." Though a civic is a tolerable little car I wouldn't reccomend one as economic transport for an 18-year old as the rates would be through the roof.

 

[Shannow]

Point...
Driving down a tollway today, at the posted 110 (km/h), there's an entry.

There are three lanes, and the merging lane. I'm in the left (your right).

The players in the left (your right) start spacing themselves to allow merging traffic from the new starters.

small blue Diahatbox Charade is in the lane wanting to enter, and isn't impressed with the two cars in front of him matching speed.

Floors it, dives in front of me (twice his weight three times his size), into my braking window, slams on his brakes to avoid hitting the car in the lane he just leaped into.

Then leaps into the next lane, into the path of a Commodore doing 10-15km/hr faster than I was.

Crapped himself and dove into the T-2 (transit and bus) lane.

There were potentially 3 accidents in 5 seconds. All three contained a small car and a big car. In all three, the loser was clear. In all three, the loser was at fault.

BTW, had a nice big muffler, a lot of "Doof-Doof", Red "P" Plates (provisional licence holder, less than 12 months), and was restricted to 80km/hr, but trying to race at over 110.

 

[Black Bart]

The best safety device is located between your ears but unfortunately far to many don't use it.

The autobahn is safer than the interstates in the USA
Contrary to what the police preach it is NOT speed that causes accidents it is stupid drivers.

 

[Shannow]

We've got a great series of signs down here.

You see a HUGE sign.

"9 out of 10 speeding deaths"

A little while later

"Occur on"

A little while later

"CORNERS"

You've got to be paying attention, as the last sign is right on an off side corner.

They've nearly caught me a few times.

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: eljefino

I was talking about the stereotypical small car driver. They are they're own worst enemy. It's weird how I had a 12 second car when I was 17, that 12 second car is now a 10 second car at the age of 30 and I've never had a wreck in it. When the fast and furious crowd started showing up they were wrecking 17 second FWD Civics left and right. How exactly do you lose control of a 90hp FWD car at the races? I would bet if you tested the IQ of the ricer community it would be signifigantly lower than the rest of the world.


True, IMO. Reminds me about the joke that asks, "how do you tell if you're a [jerk]?" (jerk in place of stronger terms...). The answer: "look at the center of your steering wheel, if you see the letters B-M-W there, then you are an. . ."
==============================================================

Originally Posted By: Black Bart
The best safety device is located between your ears but unfortunately far to many don't use it.

The autobahn is safer than the interstates in the USA
Contrary to what the police preach it is NOT speed that causes accidents it is stupid drivers.



Now I can agree totally with all of that. As to our previous exchange, my ultimate point is that relative size and mass are just a couple factors, obviously important ones, amongst probably thousands of factors that all together, determine what happens in any given collision between moving vehicles/objects.

If cars were like billiard balls, I'd agree more with you. Such balls have virtually no elasticity, and obviously don't deform to any discernable extent when they hit. Effectively all of the energy that comes to the impact is converted into outward motion.

With vehicles, there is usually crushing and deformation that will absorb much of (sometimes all) the energy coming into the crash. If all the energy is absorbed and the vehicles are still deforming, then there will be very, very little, if any, rebound effect. OTOH, if one or both vehicles crush as much as they can, and there's still energy being transferred, then it may be expended as a rebound, as you describe.

Keep in mind, there may be a thousand other factors that are all operating in the same few milliseconds that determine how colliding objects will behave.

Generally, being in the larger of the colliding cars is probably better, but as pointed out before, that may not be true in a given impact. In an SUV vs. mid-size car, the car may be the place to be if its shell holds up (as mine did in the above-described T-Bone); the SUV may be the worst place to be if its high center of gravity causes it to destabilize and roll over.

 

[psudaytona]

Reading over this whole topic makes me think of that commercial about the car with the backup cameras and how it saved the guy from x number of trips to the body shop.

Seems we are hoping that the car makers can engineer us a way to save ourselves from our collective lack of driving skills. A woman my mom works with had a ford explorer up till the middle of summer when she got t boned in an intersection and flipped over. Her dog died(flung around the cabin) and she got a collapsed lung(no belt on...). She always boasted how safe she was cause the explorer was "so solid, and heavy". Yeah, top heavy maybe. And all its technology didnt make her wear her belt still.

As for size, I did feel more nervous of size differences on my old car. It was a subcompact dodge daytona and my new car is a 98 crown vic PI. Major size difference. I think the daytona did pretty well though when it got rear ended at 40. I got damaged bumper mounts and smashed in spare tire well but the car drive just fine and didnt even loose a taillight. 06 plymouth that hit me was TOTALLED. Collapsed front end. Her car did what it was designed, take the hit. Her airbag didnt go off either for whatever reason.

 

[Spitty]

Strange things happen during accidents and size/weight is no guarantee you are going to fare better.
Accidents are best avoided in the first place!
A responsive vehicle and an alert driver will go a long way to prevent an accident in the first place.
If are going to play the bigger is safer game, you'd better be sure the other car/Truck/Object has less mass than you!
If I'm going to hit an immovable object, I'll take crumple zones and a rigid passenger shell over shear bulk and lbs any day.

 

[01rangerxl]

Originally Posted By: Spitty

Accidents are best avoided in the first place!

That is certainly the truth. I have never been in a real wreck while I was driving. I have come close, but somehow managed to avoid them. I think the fact that my first truck had a manual transmission helped there. I was always aware of traffic because I had to shift accordingly. The worst that has happened to me was when a guy in a Toyota pickup hit my Ranger at a stop light. Thankfully the trailer hitch took the hit and there was no damage to my truck. I guess the Explorer has been in a few accidents while I have had it, but those all happened off road. I'm not sure if you can count ramming into dirt piles and whatnot as a true accident.

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: psudaytona
. . .
A woman my mom works with had a ford explorer up till the middle of summer when she got t boned in an intersection and flipped over. Her dog died(flung around the cabin) and she got a collapsed lung(no belt on...). She always boasted how safe she was cause the explorer was "so solid, and heavy". Yeah, top heavy maybe. And all its technology didnt make her wear her belt still.
. . .


Having experienced a bad T-Bone (in a Camry, as described, above), I'd much rather experience a front end impact in a mid-size sedan than a T-Bone in an SUV. Side impacts are bad news, no matter what you're driving.

 

[moving2]

Originally Posted By: Titan
Notice this article also says, once a vehicle reaches 4500 lbs, the death rate is the same in these big vehicles as in small cars...because TOO BIG is as dangerous to the occupants as is too small.

Titan- please reread the article, as your statement is incorrect. Please read the quote from the article below:

"Studies show that extra weight does little or no good after about 4,500 pounds, roughly the weight of a minivan or midsize SUV. And the heaviest vehicles, full-size pickups, have driver death rates about the same as small cars."

1. Extra weight after 4,500lbs does little or no good does not imply it does harm, only that it provides no additional benefit.

2. Full size pickups are the only group of heavy vehicles referenced in the article with death rates similar to small cars.

Good theory on "too big", but not backed up by facts if you read the article and IIHS stats.

 

[crinkles]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Point...
Driving down a tollway today, at the posted 110 (km/h), there's an entry.

There are three lanes, and the merging lane. I'm in the left (your right).

The players in the left (your right) start spacing themselves to allow merging traffic from the new starters.

small blue Diahatbox Charade is in the lane wanting to enter, and isn't impressed with the two cars in front of him matching speed.

Floors it, dives in front of me (twice his weight three times his size), into my braking window, slams on his brakes to avoid hitting the car in the lane he just leaped into.

Then leaps into the next lane, into the path of a Commodore doing 10-15km/hr faster than I was.

Crapped himself and dove into the T-2 (transit and bus) lane.

There were potentially 3 accidents in 5 seconds. All three contained a small car and a big car. In all three, the loser was clear. In all three, the loser was at fault.

BTW, had a nice big muffler, a lot of "Doof-Doof", Red "P" Plates (provisional licence holder, less than 12 months), and was restricted to 80km/hr, but trying to race at over 110.


P-Platers... gotta love em. Almost got run over carrying my daughter across a pedestrian crossing on Sunday. 18 year old [censored] with a souped up early 90's commodoore with an even dumber chick thinking her b/f is cool.

I swear if my daughter ever ever gets with an idiot driving a souped up car I am locking her away. And punching his lights out! I am only 26 but I don't understand the driving culture among "men", more like boys, who are 17 -25 or [censored] forbid oler than 25. i have no words.

 

[ekpolk]

Shannow, crincles:

I see your point all too well, and don't disagree at all. That said, the priceless example is somewhat illusory as to the question of the safety of small(er) cars. That suicidal P-Plater is a funeral waiting to happen, irrespective of what he's driving. The cause of his death won't be the size of the car he's driving, it will be his testosterone sodden, low-capacity brain. This is really another facet of what I said a few posts back, to the effect that the best safety tools are a good brain and well-used eyeballs.

That kid will either figure out how to drive, or he will take himself (and heaven knows how many others) out of the gene pool permanently. And whether or not he makes such a departure will be only minimally influenced by what he's driving, big or small, when he makes the fatal mistake.

 

[Titan]

Originally Posted By: moving2
Originally Posted By: Titan
Notice this article also says, once a vehicle reaches 4500 lbs, the death rate is the same in these big vehicles as in small cars...because TOO BIG is as dangerous to the occupants as is too small.

Titan- please reread the article, as your statement is incorrect. Please read the quote from the article below:

"Studies show that extra weight does little or no good after about 4,500 pounds, roughly the weight of a minivan or midsize SUV. And the heaviest vehicles, full-size pickups, have driver death rates about the same as small cars."

1. Extra weight after 4,500lbs does little or no good does not imply it does harm, only that it provides no additional benefit.

2. Full size pickups are the only group of heavy vehicles referenced in the article with death rates similar to small cars.

Good theory on "too big", but not backed up by facts if you read the article and IIHS stats.


Got your point...thanks! My comment was made in light of the fact that once a heavier vehicle is out of control, it is MUCH harder to regain control...and it's going to stay out of control much longer due to it's mass.

 

[ShiningArcanine]

Originally Posted By: brianl703
Originally Posted By: Jethro
poor speed limit enforcement


Speed limit seems to be about the only traffic law that's enforced, when they bother to enforce it. VA state police likes to increase "enforcement" on holidays which consists of parking more troopers in the U-turn cuts in the median. They don't get to see the real good stuff when they're sitting in the median and not driving in traffic.

Incidentally, there was a thread recently here where the poster suggested that they shouldn't have gotten into an accident because they were going the speed limit AND the fact that they got into an accident must mean that the speed limit is too high.

I've often wondered how many people think that the only contribution to safe driving they need to make is matching the needle with the number, like the guy mentioned above.


Was this accident on a major freeway?

 

[lovcom]

Originally Posted By: Black Bart
The best safety device is located between your ears but unfortunately far to many don't use it.

The autobahn is safer than the interstates in the USA
Contrary to what the police preach it is NOT speed that causes accidents it is stupid drivers.



You got it wrong ;-)

It is true that speed does not cause accidents, however speed does kill, because the more speed involved in an accident increases the risk of injury and death.

 

[PF52]

Originally Posted By: ShiningArcanine
Was this accident on a major freeway?


If its the one I'm thinking of, it was the kid with the Toyota who rear-ended some lady, despite driving with his high beams on the whole time. He seemed to feel the government had let him down by posting a speed limit which somehow magically didn't keep him from having an accident.

 

[benjamming]

Originally Posted By: lovcom

...however rapid deceleration does kill...


fixed it for ya

 

[ShiningArcanine]

Originally Posted By: lovcom
Originally Posted By: Black Bart
The best safety device is located between your ears but unfortunately far to many don't use it.

The autobahn is safer than the interstates in the USA
Contrary to what the police preach it is NOT speed that causes accidents it is stupid drivers.



You got it wrong ;-)

It is true that speed does not cause accidents, however speed does kill, because the more speed involved in an accident increases the risk of injury and death.


Energy kills. If a large amount of energy is transfered to a person, it will kill him. If no energy is transfered to a person in a collision, it does not matter how badly damaged the car is or what the impact velocity is, the person will be unscathed.

Also, the statement that the autobahns in Germany are safer than highways in the US should be true, as collisions occur when two objects make contact with one another and according to the equation (v(1)*d(1)*l(1) = v(2)*d(2)*l(2), where () denotes a subscript, v denotes average velocity, d denotes average linear density and l denotes the number of lanes, a higher velocity will lead to an inversely proportional linear density and if the linear density declines, the closeness of cars on the highway declines. Consequently, this results in a lower rate of collisions, as the highway becomes less congested, so long as velocities are kept within the design limitations of the highways under consideration. As velocities rise above the design limitations, the rate of collisions will begin to increase, which is why it is necessary that speed limits enforce the design limitations of roads in question, barring any circumstances (such as tree cover on curved roads) that were not part of the original design.

Another factor in this is how many people are using the highways, which could be a confounding variable when comparing the autobahns to highways in the US, but in general, I believe that raising the speed limit, particularly on interstates that are designed for 85 mph speed limits, but have 55 mph speed limits, would contribute to safety and that the higher speeds allowed by the autobahns give greater safety than the speed limits that we have in the US.

Checking Wikipedia states that the autobahns are among the safest road ways in Europe, although it makes no comparison to those in the United States:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahn#Accident_Record

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: css9450
Originally Posted By: ShiningArcanine
Was this accident on a major freeway?


If its the one I'm thinking of, it was the kid with the Toyota who rear-ended some lady, despite driving with his high beams on the whole time. He seemed to feel the government had let him down by posting a speed limit which somehow magically didn't keep him from having an accident.

 

[lovcom]

Originally Posted By: ShiningArcanine
Originally Posted By: lovcom
Originally Posted By: Black Bart
The best safety device is located between your ears but unfortunately far to many don't use it.

The autobahn is safer than the interstates in the USA
Contrary to what the police preach it is NOT speed that causes accidents it is stupid drivers.



You got it wrong ;-)

It is true that speed does not cause accidents, however speed does kill, because the more speed involved in an accident increases the risk of injury and death.


Energy kills. If a large amount of energy is transfered to a person, it will kill him. If no energy is transfered to a person in a collision, it does not matter how badly damaged the car is or what the impact velocity is, the person will be unscathed.

Also, the statement that the autobahns in Germany are safer than highways in the US should be true, as collisions occur when two objects make contact with one another and according to the equation (v(1)*d(1)*l(1) = v(2)*d(2)*l(2), where () denotes a subscript, v denotes average velocity, d denotes average linear density and l denotes the number of lanes, a higher velocity will lead to an inversely proportional linear density and if the linear density declines, the closeness of cars on the highway declines. Consequently, this results in a lower rate of collisions, as the highway becomes less congested, so long as velocities are kept within the design limitations of the highways under consideration. As velocities rise above the design limitations, the rate of collisions will begin to increase, which is why it is necessary that speed limits enforce the design limitations of roads in question, barring any circumstances (such as tree cover on curved roads) that were not part of the original design.

Another factor in this is how many people are using the highways, which could be a confounding variable when comparing the autobahns to highways in the US, but in general, I believe that raising the speed limit, particularly on interstates that are designed for 85 mph speed limits, but have 55 mph speed limits, would contribute to safety and that the higher speeds allowed by the autobahns give greater safety than the speed limits that we have in the US.

Checking Wikipedia states that the autobahns are among the safest road ways in Europe, although it makes no comparison to those in the United States:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahn#Accident_Record


The German autobahns are safe more because of the who the germans are, their demeanor, mentality, adherent to safety, logic, and precesion.

The Auto Pistas of Italy, the freeways of Spain, and France, often just as well made as the Germen autobahns, those other countries do NOT show the low fatalities and accidents of their German cousins. I think culture, and traits of a population come into play much more then you think.