Running Dodge Caravan rims on my Camry

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So... I picked up some "Radar Guardsman Plus" tires from Sears on Cyber Monday and wanted to make sure they were round and held air before paying off my credit card so I'd have the chance to go yell at 'em.

Don't need to. They're great. I hit some black ice. Front axle was Guardsman, rear were nearly new Starfire SF340s that came with the car. Guardsmen held. I hit the highway in the rain, they held at 75. No vibrations.

Since I run my own manual tire machine I like to have extra rims kicking around so I can have new, mounted tires ready-to-go. Dug around Craigslist and found three 15" Caravan steel rims with bald junk tires for $20. These deals pop up from time to time when people buy already-mounted replacements. The old sets are like Kryptonite; noone wants to deal with tire disposal.

Caravan wheels have the same 5x114.3 lug pattern but a bigger 70mm bore. (Toyotas are 60.1) Net wisdom is evenly split about lugcentric mounting being an issue or not. I seated my acorn lug nuts carefully and had no vibrations or problems. I see plenty of slightly bent rims on my balancer and these Caravan ones are either tough & heavy or lived an easy life. Regardless, I expect they'll be plenty durable on my lighter sedan.

For the record, Camry rims are 6.5" wide, these Caravan ones 7 inches. Offset is within 2mm and nothing rubs. 205/65/15 tires will go on either width rim. The plastic hubcap with friction spring ring fit holds aggressively.

Point? Is there one? Think outside the box. When used tire- or wheel shopping consider getting a set and divesting yourself of the part you're not interested in retaining.

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Originally Posted By: eljefino
Caravan wheels have the same 5x114.3 lug pattern but a bigger 70mm bore. (Toyotas are 60.1) Net wisdom is evenly split about lugcentric mounting being an issue or not. I seated my acorn lug nuts carefully and had no vibrations or problems. I see plenty of slightly bent rims on my balancer and these Caravan ones are either tough & heavy or lived an easy life.


Hub rings or hubcentricity (is that a word?) is absolutely not needed for smooth wheels, as long as they have a tapered seat. Even with hub rings, the wheel will ultimately be centered by the acorn lug nuts, anyway.
 
I'm trying to think outside the box here, but I'm not picking up what you're putting down. Are you hard on wheels, or what? They fit, but they're ugly. I guess I'm just wondering why you like to have extra wheels with tires mounted and ready to go for.
 
Originally Posted By: bvance554
I'm trying to think outside the box here, but I'm not picking up what you're putting down. Are you hard on wheels, or what? They fit, but they're ugly. I guess I'm just wondering why you like to have extra wheels with tires mounted and ready to go for.


Well I'm busy with work and kids and whatever and having something I can throw on in two minutes to take care of one of several problems (road hazard, vibration) has its benefits. I'm setting the car up for highway commutes; a possibly heavier-duty wheel that stays true is great. Don't really care about unsprung weight.

I'm also set on oil filters, wiper blades, and other stuff for the next 100k.
wink.gif
Just have to not buy "too far out" on stuff that ages out, and, yeah, tires qualify.
 
A couple of thoughts:

I've had several conversations with engineers at vehicle manufacturers concerning hub centering. The consensus is that the center hole has to be tight because the lugs will pull the wheel slightly off center. HOWEVER, they all agreed that size of the center hole is a limiting factor. In other words, the wheel does NOT center on the lugs on a hub centric wheel - but takes up the available slop if the holes/lugs aren't centered.

What this means is that (in this case, where the wheel is lug centered where the intent was hub centered!), that the result is going to be a random mix of the wheel lug hole centering, lug centering, wheel runout, and tire uniformity. That means it is possible not to have problem, but it is also possible to have HUGE problems. It is going to be random - and if I remember my statistics correctly, the bias in this type of system is towards evening thongs out - BUT - when the tolerances stack up, the result could be quite bad!

Note: I've been involved in some studies where we looked at the affect of lug centering has, and discovered that changing which wheel lug hole goes on which which lug can affect the results.

So, eljefino, if you come up with a vibration, a simple thing to try is to figure out which corner is the problem, then reorient the wheel on the lugs by 180°.
 
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer

So, eljefino, if you come up with a vibration, a simple thing to try is to figure out which corner is the problem, then reorient the wheel on the lugs by 180°.


I can only do 72° increments!
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Thanks for posting another data point on lugcentricity.

What if I left the wheel on the lug studs in the same position, but either switched my nuts around, or torqued the first two in a different pattern?
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Are hub flanges (where the studs start) drilled with more precision than wheel lug holes?

For the record I ran around carefully getting all five nuts with 20 ft lbs, then 40, then 80 with it still in the air.
 
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer

So, eljefino, if you come up with a vibration, a simple thing to try is to figure out which corner is the problem, then reorient the wheel on the lugs by 180°.


I can only do 72° increments!
laugh.gif


Thanks for posting another data point on lugcentricity.

What if I left the wheel on the lug studs in the same position, but either switched my nuts around, or torqued the first two in a different pattern?
36.gif


Are hub flanges (where the studs start) drilled with more precision than wheel lug holes?

For the record I ran around carefully getting all five nuts with 20 ft lbs, then 40, then 80 with it still in the air.


Yes, Yes!! I realize that you can't do 180°, but the idea is to completely reverse the orientation as best you can - and that would be 144°, with 2 choices.

And it isn't the lugs OR the lug holes - it's the combination. I don't think lug nuts would have any affect at all, but the order of tightening might.

I think the wheel is stamped, so the lug holes might be better than the lugs as the lugs have to be both centered and perpendicular.

Also, be aware that many wheels are purposely built off center from the center hole (and if I am right about the wheel being stamped, the wheel will be off center from the lug holes as well.)

And as far as your torquing technique: If I remember correctly, the vehicle engineers seemed to think it was the first seated lug nut that was the issue (and they were talking about using an impact gun), and that was because the wheel would be just a little bit crooked (the center hole is tapered!). So I would think that hand tightening the lug nuts so the wheel is fully seated against the whole hub is enough.
 
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer

Also, be aware that many wheels are purposely built off center from the center hole (and if I am right about the wheel being stamped, the wheel will be off center from the lug holes as well.)


Playing with my balancer and a naked OE wheel mounted through the center hole with a cone "in the usual way" I've noticed them nearly universally being within .25 oz of balanced. I've read your previous dissertations on match-mounting new tires for new cars.
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I haven't run a dial indicator but can sort "round" rims from abused ones with my calculated eyeball. Cone-mounted rims that are "round enough" on the balancer are in fact round enough for me.
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So, no fears of having this rim stick to your Camry hub, eh? Boy are those a tight on my Camry--they get slathered in antisieze now. I thought with 5 or so rotations a year they wouldn't stick--after busting loose twice, I slathered, and haven't had an issue since.
 
I'm running 17" x 8" Mustang gt wheels on my Maxima. The mustang bore is like 70mm vs 61mm. I have had no problem in 4 years and two sets of tires.

IMG_20150316_170343137_zpsjesqckgt.jpg
 
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
A couple of thoughts:

I've had several conversations with engineers at vehicle manufacturers concerning hub centering. The consensus is that the center hole has to be tight because the lugs will pull the wheel slightly off center. HOWEVER, they all agreed that size of the center hole is a limiting factor. In other words, the wheel does NOT center on the lugs on a hub centric wheel - but takes up the available slop if the holes/lugs aren't centered.

What this means is that (in this case, where the wheel is lug centered where the intent was hub centered!), that the result is going to be a random mix of the wheel lug hole centering, lug centering, wheel runout, and tire uniformity. That means it is possible not to have problem, but it is also possible to have HUGE problems. It is going to be random - and if I remember my statistics correctly, the bias in this type of system is towards evening thongs out - BUT - when the tolerances stack up, the result could be quite bad!

Note: I've been involved in some studies where we looked at the affect of lug centering has, and discovered that changing which wheel lug hole goes on which which lug can affect the results.

So, eljefino, if you come up with a vibration, a simple thing to try is to figure out which corner is the problem, then reorient the wheel on the lugs by 180°.


Or get a set of hub centering rings.
 
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle

Or get a set of hub centering rings.


They make rings that go from "universal aftermarket", say 73mm, to OE sizes. The rim supplier has their stake.

I would need to get custom machined ones to go from "dodge to toyota".
laugh.gif


This is strangely similar to what it takes to put a screw mount lens on a Nikon DSLR camera.
laugh.gif
 
Originally Posted By: eljefino
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle

Or get a set of hub centering rings.


They make rings that go from "universal aftermarket", say 73mm, to OE sizes. The rim supplier has their stake.

I would need to get custom machined ones to go from "dodge to toyota".
laugh.gif


This is strangely similar to what it takes to put a screw mount lens on a Nikon DSLR camera.
laugh.gif



...actually, those adapters, concentric rings, are quite commonly made to ensure tight fitting rims round the hub....however, there are no adapters to mount screw mount lenses on Nikon DSLR bodies...CANON bods yes though
smile.gif
 
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