Royal Purple Filters VS Wix extended life filter

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Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Main and rod Bearing running clearance is usually under 20 microns - on some Asian engine under 10 microns. A human hair is fat.


Not so sure about that ... what's the nominal main and rod bearing clearance spec? Google search shows the typical main and large end rod bearing clearance setup is around 0.001" to 0.0015" (25.4 to 38.1 microns).

40 microns = 0.00157" (1.57 thousands)
20 microns = 0.00079" (0.79 thousands)
10 microns = 0.00039" (0.39 thousands)
 
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Main and rod Bearing running clearance is usually under 20 microns - on some Asian engine under 10 microns. A human hair is fat.


Well it's on! I put it on an hour ago. And since it requires full synthetic oil, I got SuperTech full synthetic in there too.
smile.gif
 
lots of things in this world people spend silly on. I keep my rides for 10years, or more. Might be silly if I traded every 4-5 years. But driving a well maintained car for 5-7 years without a payment--that's smart--not silly. If a purple colored filter, or one with a lugnut on the end gets me there, don't mind a extra $5.


Originally Posted By: Dallas69
I think it is silly to spend 15 bucks for a filter that is only going to be used for 7500 miles
 
Originally Posted By: Nightmare
lots of things in this world people spend silly on. I keep my rides for 10years, or more. Might be silly if I traded every 4-5 years. But driving a well maintained car for 5-7 years without a payment--that's smart--not silly. If a purple colored filter, or one with a lugnut on the end gets me there, don't mind a extra $5.


Originally Posted By: Dallas69
I think it is silly to spend 15 bucks for a filter that is only going to be used for 7500 miles



We put 250k miles on our minivan over 18 years of hard soccer-mom type driving. The Villager saw conventional lube and normal filters nearly it's entire life. The van endured several intentional extended OCIs (10k and 15k miles) on a M/C filter and Wally's ST dino oil. UOAs and filter disection showed no harm and everything completely in control.

Additionally, there's the glaring example of the K&N story of this guy:
http://www.knfilters.com/news/news.aspx?ID=157
Note that he states he's had over "400 oil changes" in a million miles; that's an OCI of 2500 miles. He never used premium oil filters or super-duper syns. He just changed oil frequently. Oddly, he also brags about how much money he saved over the duration by reusing an air filter, but he never was able to see the value in extende OCIs via bypass lube filtration ... Talk about irony! But my point is that he ran one-million miles on normal lube and oil filters. He didn't "need" synthetics and premium filters to get there.

There are many other examples of longevity in other brands of vehicles with normal products in use.

No one "needs" premium products to assure long life of their equipment. What you "need" is to match up the products you choose to use when considering these things:
1) operating conditions (environmental, driving style, distances, etc)
2) maintenance program parameters (O/FCI duration, etc)
3) lineage history (easy on oil? known sludger? etc)

If you intend to run really long OCIs and/or FCIs, then I'd agree and recommend premium products like syns and bypass are a wise choice. But if "normal" O/FCIs are you intent, you don't need, nor will you benefit from, expending cash on premium products that show absoutely ZERO ROI over that duration.

There exists a HUGE amount of reserve capacity for use in normal products. I have yet to see credible proof that anyone on a 7.5k mile jaunt "needs" RP filter and M1 lube. Syn fluids and high-end filtration are fiscal tools to make the O/FCI last longer, for a better ROI. They do not assure longevity of equipment.

Read my signature line.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Main and rod Bearing running clearance is usually under 20 microns - on some Asian engine under 10 microns. A human hair is fat.


Not so sure about that ... what's the nominal main and rod bearing clearance spec? Google search shows the typical main and large end rod bearing clearance setup is around 0.001" to 0.0015" (25.4 to 38.1 microns).

40 microns = 0.00157" (1.57 thousands)
20 microns = 0.00079" (0.79 thousands)
10 microns = 0.00039" (0.39 thousands)


25.4 microns/mil
That's diametrical clearance - the effective running clearance with a hydrodynamic wedge is < 1/2 the stated clearance.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3

There exists a HUGE amount of reserve capacity for use in normal products. I have yet to see credible proof that anyone on a 7.5k mile jaunt "needs" RP filter and M1 lube.


Totally agree. If I were a fleet manager overseeing a hundred service trucks or vans, I would be much more worried about the per-unit cost of filters, and would not spend a cent above what was required.

As an individual car owner, my risk/benefit calculation is very different. The $4 extra for an RP filter will *never* be a factor in the total cost of ownership of 3-4 vehicles. However, ONE failure of a cheap filter that causes a loss of oil pressure (media collapse and bypass valve binding the way the low-end Frams sometimes do, for example) could cost me a lot. Not *likely* to do so, but very ostly if it happened. With a fleet, the probability of losing an engine might be higher, but the total cost impact of losing an engine every XX years is significantly lower than the definite cost impact of spending $4 more per filter across the whole fleet for those XX years.
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Well it's on! I put it on an hour ago. And since it requires full synthetic oil, I got SuperTech full synthetic in there too.
smile.gif


What requires full synthetic oil, the filter or the car?
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
There exists a HUGE amount of reserve capacity for use in normal products. I have yet to see credible proof that anyone on a 7.5k mile jaunt "needs" RP filter and M1 lube. Syn fluids and high-end filtration are fiscal tools to make the O/FCI last longer, for a better ROI. They do not assure longevity of equipment.

Read my signature line.

Agreed.

I used these low end filters in my 260+k miles LS400 for up to 18-20k miles in 1 year without problems: Fram Extra Guard, Pep Boys house brand Proline, STP ... It's hard to find lower end filters than these.

I didn't cut open those filters so I didn't see the innards.

The Hengst cartridge filter in my E430 shows very little debris, almost none I can see after 23k miles of use. I reused it on second OCI at 11k miles and the first OCI was 12k miles. The condition was so good I thought about using it for another 11-12k OCI, but I have more than 5-6 in my stash so I used a new one.

I a clean engine there is very little debris to filter, as long as the oil is change at reasonable interval, i.e., not 30-40k miles.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
A couple of different members here have emailed and called WIX tech department about the published efficiency of the WIX XP (NAPA Platinum is the same filter too) thinking is was a mis-print. The answer directly back from WIX was always that the XP's efficiency is 50% @ 20 microns.


What are the stats on the regular WIX filters ?
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Originally Posted By: Nightmare
lots of things in this world people spend silly on. I keep my rides for 10years, or more. Might be silly if I traded every 4-5 years. But driving a well maintained car for 5-7 years without a payment--that's smart--not silly. If a purple colored filter, or one with a lugnut on the end gets me there, don't mind a extra $5.


Originally Posted By: Dallas69
I think it is silly to spend 15 bucks for a filter that is only going to be used for 7500 miles



We put 250k miles on our minivan over 18 years of hard soccer-mom type driving. The Villager saw conventional lube and normal filters nearly it's entire life. The van endured several intentional extended OCIs (10k and 15k miles) on a M/C filter and Wally's ST dino oil. UOAs and filter disection showed no harm and everything completely in control.

Additionally, there's the glaring example of the K&N story of this guy:
http://www.knfilters.com/news/news.aspx?ID=157
Note that he states he's had over "400 oil changes" in a million miles; that's an OCI of 2500 miles. He never used premium oil filters or super-duper syns. He just changed oil frequently. Oddly, he also brags about how much money he saved over the duration by reusing an air filter, but he never was able to see the value in extende OCIs via bypass lube filtration ... Talk about irony! But my point is that he ran one-million miles on normal lube and oil filters. He didn't "need" synthetics and premium filters to get there.

There are many other examples of longevity in other brands of vehicles with normal products in use.

No one "needs" premium products to assure long life of their equipment. What you "need" is to match up the products you choose to use when considering these things:
1) operating conditions (environmental, driving style, distances, etc)
2) maintenance program parameters (O/FCI duration, etc)
3) lineage history (easy on oil? known sludger? etc)

If you intend to run really long OCIs and/or FCIs, then I'd agree and recommend premium products like syns and bypass are a wise choice. But if "normal" O/FCIs are you intent, you don't need, nor will you benefit from, expending cash on premium products that show absoutely ZERO ROI over that duration.

There exists a HUGE amount of reserve capacity for use in normal products. I have yet to see credible proof that anyone on a 7.5k mile jaunt "needs" RP filter and M1 lube. Syn fluids and high-end filtration are fiscal tools to make the O/FCI last longer, for a better ROI. They do not assure longevity of equipment.

Read my signature line.


dnewton3 that info supports the fact functionally in the engine dino and synthetic motor oil are equal.

If I am going to lift 1000 pounds with a single cable and one is one rated a 10,000 pounds better than one rated at 5000 pounds or will functionally both perform the task equally.
 
Originally Posted By: CELICA_XX
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
A couple of different members here have emailed and called WIX tech department about the published efficiency of the WIX XP (NAPA Platinum is the same filter too) thinking is was a mis-print. The answer directly back from WIX was always that the XP's efficiency is 50% @ 20 microns.


What are the stats on the regular WIX filters ?


Most of them are 95% @ 20 microns.

Regular WIX 51042
http://www.wixfilters.com/Lookup/PartDetails.aspx?Part=51042

It shows: Beta Ratio: 2/20=6/20
This means 50% @ 6 microns and 95% @ 20 microns

WIX XP 51042
http://www.wixfilters.com/Lookup/PartDetails.aspx?Part=51042XP

It shows: Beta Ratio: B2=20
This means 50% @ 20 microns.
 
Originally Posted By: Bottom_Feeder
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Well it's on! I put it on an hour ago. And since it requires full synthetic oil, I got SuperTech full synthetic in there too.
smile.gif


What requires full synthetic oil, the filter or the car?


The filter.
 
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Main and rod Bearing running clearance is usually under 20 microns - on some Asian engine under 10 microns. A human hair is fat.


Not so sure about that ... what's the nominal main and rod bearing clearance spec? Google search shows the typical main and large end rod bearing clearance setup is around 0.001" to 0.0015" (25.4 to 38.1 microns).

40 microns = 0.00157" (1.57 thousands)
20 microns = 0.00079" (0.79 thousands)
10 microns = 0.00039" (0.39 thousands)


25.4 microns/mil
That's diametrical clearance - the effective running clearance with a hydrodynamic wedge is < 1/2 the stated clearance.


Hydrodynamic wedge minimum thickness is higher with more viscosity and more running speed, and less with higher piston force. Therefore, bearing build-clearances don't matter as much as the physics of "surfing" the oil film. (Note at start-up near-zero oil film exists.) Of all the parts oiled inside an engine, the oil film thickness varies between ZERO and upwards of ~100 microns+. Particles not caught by the oil filter (or a magnetic drain plug) can increase wear in zero+ oil films.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: CELICA_XX
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
A couple of different members here have emailed and called WIX tech department about the published efficiency of the WIX XP (NAPA Platinum is the same filter too) thinking is was a mis-print. The answer directly back from WIX was always that the XP's efficiency is 50% @ 20 microns.


What are the stats on the regular WIX filters ?


Most of them are 95% @ 20 microns.

Regular WIX 51042
http://www.wixfilters.com/Lookup/PartDetails.aspx?Part=51042

It shows: Beta Ratio: 2/20=6/20
This means 50% @ 6 microns and 95% @ 20 microns

WIX XP 51042
http://www.wixfilters.com/Lookup/PartDetails.aspx?Part=51042XP

It shows: Beta Ratio: B2=20
This means 50% @ 20 microns.


Is that ISO 4548-12 mult-pass efficiences, or single pass efficiency? Wix is not the clearest on this stuff are they! ... It does sound like the Regular Wix is stating the 4548-12 since its glass-cellulose-blend media performs at the same level as Fram's "CHxxx" orange oil filters that also have a minimal amount of glass fibers blended in and get a 95% 4548-12 at 20 microns score.
 
Originally Posted By: FetchFar
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: CELICA_XX
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
A couple of different members here have emailed and called WIX tech department about the published efficiency of the WIX XP (NAPA Platinum is the same filter too) thinking is was a mis-print. The answer directly back from WIX was always that the XP's efficiency is 50% @ 20 microns.


What are the stats on the regular WIX filters ?


Most of them are 95% @ 20 microns.

Regular WIX 51042
http://www.wixfilters.com/Lookup/PartDetails.aspx?Part=51042

It shows: Beta Ratio: 2/20=6/20
This means 50% @ 6 microns and 95% @ 20 microns

WIX XP 51042
http://www.wixfilters.com/Lookup/PartDetails.aspx?Part=51042XP

It shows: Beta Ratio: B2=20
This means 50% @ 20 microns.


Is that ISO 4548-12 mult-pass efficiences, or single pass efficiency? Wix is not the clearest on this stuff are they! ... It does sound like the Regular Wix is stating the 4548-12 since its glass-cellulose-blend media performs at the same level as Fram's "CHxxx" orange oil filters that also have a minimal amount of glass fibers blended in and get a 95% 4548-12 at 20 microns score.


I searched all over the WIX website and couldn't find any reference to which test spec they are quoting beta ratios against. I guess you could probably call or email the WIX tech line to see if they could answer the question.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
^^^ No oil filter "requires" full synthetic oil.


Here's the exact quote and how it's written in the sales ad:

"Specially Designed for Use with FULL SYNTHETIC Motor Oil !"

21.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
^^^ No oil filter "requires" full synthetic oil.


Here's the exact quote and how it's written in the sales ad:

"Specially Designed for Use with FULL SYNTHETIC Motor Oil !"

21.gif



All they mean is that the oil filter is meant to go longer OCIs since full synthetic oil can go for longer OCIs.

You could use a WIX XP with conventional motor oil and change the filter and oil every 3K~5K, or you could just change the conventional oil and use the filter for 2 OCIs.

The filter media doesn't care what kind of oil is flowing through it. It's not gonna melt if non-synthetic is used.
grin.gif
 
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