Rowe vs liqui moly 0W20 VW Spec (50800/50900)

[The Critic]

I fail to see how a company's decision to sell additive products in addition to their oil creates an issue? Clearly this is a profit center for them.

To me it's similar to M1 selling all the different lines of oils - nobody needs anything beyond regular ol' M1 but we have: High Mileage. Extended. Extended High Mileage. Advanced Fuel Economy. Hybrid. Why all the different blends that nobody will likely show do a thing beyond the normal M1? Is it...marketing and profit-driven? Sure it is.

Fundamentally it is just wrong. Not ethical. It is nearly impossible for someone to claim that an additive will bolster the performance of any oil without the potential of additive clash or diminishing the performance of the oil it is being added to. As an oil company, they start at a level of credibility that is higher than most additive companies; offering products like these ruin their credibility.

The M1 options you presented are fully formulated oils which have a certain level of performance that can be validated.

 

[TiGeo]

Fundamentally it is just wrong. Not ethical. It is nearly impossible for someone to claim that an additive will bolster the performance of any oil without the potential of additive clash or diminishing the performance of the oil it is being added to. As an oil company, they start at a level of credibility that is higher than most additive companies; offering products like these ruin their credibility.

The M1 options you presented are fully formulated oils which have a certain level of performance that can be validated.

There is nothing to me that is unethical about selling additives. I'm quite sure LM has done enough R&D to sell these products worry-free w/r to clashing or causing issues.

Show me that M1 HM formula and M1 HM extended differ in any meaningful way to the end consumer or that that $2 difference can be measured. You can't. So this is misleading marketing to sell more product to folks that walk into Walmart and go "I have an older car, probably should get HM...oh way...better pay a few more bucks for the HM Extended!" To me it's a similar marketing game...one sells an extra sidecar additive (here HM oils would be like their Motor Oil Saver) and one sells it blended in the oil. I guess I don't get too hung up on this stuff and certainly neither is unethical (to me).

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

There is nothing to me that is unethical about selling additives. I'm quite sure LM has done enough R&D to sell these products worry-free w/r to clashing or causing issues.

Show me that M1 HM formula and M1 HM extended differ in any meaningful way to the end consumer or that that $2 difference can be measured. You can't. So this is misleading marketing to sell more product to folks that walk into Walmart and go "I have an older car, probably should get HM...oh way...better pay a few more bucks for the HM Extended!" To me it's a similar marketing game...one sells an extra sidecar additive (here HM oils would be like their Motor Oil Saver) and one sells it blended in the oil. I guess I don't get too hung up on this stuff and certainly neither is unethical (to me).

Ya.

I don't think LM sells anything which could harm an engine when used as directed. Of course that's not the same as fixing an issue or falling on the right side of cost effectiveness.

 

[The Critic]

There is nothing to me that is unethical about selling additives.

Yes, there is. They are generating the perception that fully-formulated engine oils are inadequate and need to be supplemented - which is not true.

Show me that M1 HM formula and M1 HM extended differ in any meaningful way to the end consumer or that that $2 difference can be measured. You can't.

One has a 20K mileage guarantee, the other does not. That is an undisputable, objective difference. UOA's may or may not show a difference since not all additive differences are detectable in a UOA. Base oil mixes can very well affect the longevity of an oil and that information is generally proprietary. You know this.

 

[TiGeo]

Ya.

I don't think LM sells anything which could harm an engine when used as directed. Of course that's not the same as fixing an issue or falling on the right side of cost effectiveness.

Agree. The additives aren't cheap and this has got to be a cash-cow for them to sell an extra $10 can of MoS2 for instance at the performance shop. Whatevs.

 

[TiGeo]

Yes, there is. They are generating the perception that fully-formulated engine oils are inadequate and need to be supplemented - which is not true.

This is the part we disagree on (clearly!). I don't see that LM pushes their additives or professes that their oils aren't ok to use alone but that's my perception, yours differs which is of course..ok! Most of the pushing is their independent shop/dealers/vendors and for that, ok. I've read some pretty bad info on social media from these types of folks w/r to additives and of course, they make more money selling them. LM itself doesn't seem to do that from what I've seen. They promote the oils primarily.

One has a 20K mileage guarantee, the other does not. That is an undisputable, objective difference. UOA's may or may not show a difference since not all additive differences are detectable in a UOA. Base oil mixes can very well affect the longevity of an oil and that information is generally proprietary. You know this.

How do you know the LM additives, since the differences aren't detecable by UOA, aren't doing the same thing and providing the benefit they are advertised as doing? The Ceratec has a TUV testing sheet posted here that shows a reduction in wear. The LM Motor Oil Saver has plenty of folks that have said it helped with leaks. I used their Radiator Stop Leak successfully. I think their products do what they say IF you follow the directions and have reasonable expectations.

 

[The Critic]

This is the part we disagree on (clearly!). I don't see that LM pushes their additives or professes that their oils aren't ok to use alone but that's my perception, yours differs which is of course..ok! Most of the pushing is their independent shop/dealers/vendors and for that, ok. I've read some pretty bad info on social media from these types of folks w/r to additives and of course, they make more money selling them. LM itself doesn't seem to do that from what I've seen. They promote the oils primarily.

Yes - we definitely disagree on this topic. To me, even offering additives sets a bad precedent - and hurts the brand's credibility. Do you see Mobil or Shell/Pennzoil offering a pour-in additive to improve wear? No!

How do you know the LM additives, since the differences aren't detecable by UOA, aren't doing the same thing and providing the benefit they are advertised as doing? The Ceratec has a TUV testing sheet posted here that shows a reduction in wear. The LM Motor Oil Saver has plenty of folks that have said it helped with leaks. I used their Radiator Stop Leak successfully. I think their products do what they say IF you follow the directions and have reasonable expectations.

Now you're changing the topic...
Fundamentally, a properly formulated oil - take your pick, OE approved or not, should not require (or benefit) from a pour-in additive.

 

[TiGeo]

Yes - we definitely disagree on this topic. To me, even offering additives sets a bad precedent - and hurts the brand's credibility. Do you see Mobil or Shell/Pennzoil offering a pour-in additive to improve wear? No!

We are back around full circle. The majors sell all these blends/oils marketed for extra performance, extra wear protection, extra seal conditioning....I don't see how this is any different b/c you pay extra for something that nobody can show does a thing over their more basic offerings beyond the hypothetical "more moly equals less wear" or similar. LM just sells some common oils then a series of additives for those that want to spend extra to see a potential benefit....I see that as very similar but understand one is a fully formulated oil and one is a pour-in additive - I fully understand your POV here.

Now you're changing the topic...
Fundamentally, a properly formulated oil - take your pick, OE approved or not, should not require (or benefit) from a pour-in additive.

I'm not changing the topic - you said that the benefits of the HM or extended protection oils from M1 aren't detectable in a UOA so how does the customer know their additional spent money on these products is doing a thing? They don't. Plenty of folks have shown over and over UOAs for normal run-of-the mill oils that perform well over long drains. Why spend more on these products then? Are the manufactures ripping folks off selling them knowing full-well that their basic oils offer all that is necessary? Because it makes folks feel good that they *may* see a benefit based on the marketing of the product.

Get the last word - I'm out on this.

 

[pbm]

Back on topic....I agree they both meet the 508/509 'approval' and should work equally well as would Valvoline's 508/509 approved Euro 0w20 and VW's own brand which is pretty reasonable on the ECS tuning site.

I'm wondering how Castrol's 0w20 Euro would fare in a VW 508/509 spec'd VW? It meets BMW LL-17 approval (which I assume is tough to meet) and is available at Walmart online for much less than these VW approved oils? Of course it isn't the right color so I'd wait until after warranty ended if I was going to try it.

Liqui Moly has 'moly' in it's name but UOAs have shown that many of their oils don't have much if any 'moly'...what's up with that?

 

[TiGeo]

Liqui Moly has 'moly' in it's name but UOAs have shown that many of their oils don't have much if any 'moly'...what's up with that?

It's the name of their original MoS2 product. They sell one oil that has solid MoS2 in it. Same reason Shell doesn't actually contain shells ...just a name.

 

[DuckRyder]

which is pretty reasonable on the ECS tuning site.

ECS charges more than the dealer, at least 2 of my dealers.

 

[KCJeep]

Back on topic....I agree they both meet the 508/509 'approval' and should work equally well as would Valvoline's 508/509 approved Euro 0w20 and VW's own brand which is pretty reasonable on the ECS tuning site.

I'm wondering how Castrol's 0w20 Euro would fare in a VW 508/509 spec'd VW? It meets BMW LL-17 approval (which I assume is tough to meet) and is available at Walmart online for much less than these VW approved oils? Of course it isn't the right color so I'd wait until after warranty ended if I was going to try it.

Liqui Moly has 'moly' in it's name but UOAs have shown that many of their oils don't have much if any 'moly'...what's up with that?

If I was going to get off the reservation regarding VW 508 it sure wouldn’t be with a different 0w20. A VW 504 would be more like it.

 

[TiGeo]

If I was going to get off the reservation regarding VW 508 it sure wouldn’t be with a different 0w20. A VW 504 would be more like it.

Same. Why lose the approval for a few bucks. Just get the kits from FCP...also carry VW and Motul 508 oils...free (mostly) for life.

 

[TiGeo]

ECS charges more than the dealer, at least 2 of my dealers.

Only way it would make sense to order VW oil vs. dealer is FCP.

 

[pbm]

Same. Why lose the approval for a few bucks. Just get the kits from FCP...also carry VW and Motul 508 oils...free (mostly) for life.

I read FCP Euros webpage about the 'replacement deal' (aka: LRG) and they do mention something about people who return stuff 'frequently' may be disqualified.

Here's the exact quote:

"Returns Abuse:Customers with an excessively high return rate or frequency will be ineligible for LRG participation. This covers those items with multiple returns prior to the end of their reasonable, useful life as well as items returned under the defective / LRG policy proactively prior to failure."

As far as the BMW LL-17 Castrol Euro....I'm not suggesting VW owners use it...just wondering how much more demanding a VW spec'd oil could be than a BMW spec'd oil? Could it be another instances where the oil maker (Castrol in this instance) didn't want to pay for VW's approval even though the oil is up to the task?

 

[TiGeo]

I read FCP Euros webpage about the 'replacement deal' (aka: LRG) and they do mention something about people who return stuff 'frequently' may be disqualified.

Here's the exact quote:

"Returns Abuse:Customers with an excessively high return rate or frequency will be ineligible for LRG participation. This covers those items with multiple returns prior to the end of their reasonable, useful life as well as items returned under the defective / LRG policy proactively prior to failure."

As far as the BMW LL-17 Castrol Euro....I'm not suggesting VW owners use it...just wondering how much more demanding a VW spec'd oil could be than a BMW spec'd oil? Could it be another instances where the oil maker (Castrol in this instance) didn't want to pay for VW's approval even though the oil is up to the task?

They are cracking down on abusers. Abusers here are folks buying for example brake pads and using them a track weekend where they are slightly worn and returning them...or spark plugs with a few K miles on them or oil changes once a mos. because "you can". I've not had any issues and use my stuff for a normal life cycle. I've returned thousands of dollars in gear over the last 3 years.

 

[pbm]

They are cracking down on abusers. Abusers here are folks buying for example brake pads and using them a track weekend where they are slightly worn and returning them...or spark plugs with a few K miles on them or oil changes once a mos. because "you can". I've not had any issues and use my stuff for a normal life cycle. I've returned thousands of dollars in gear over the last 3 years.

I'm not making a personal attack here....but I think anybody who returns their used oil (which performed well in service) for replacement...just because "you can" is abusing the intent of the policy.

 

[TiGeo]

I'm not making a personal attack here....but I think anybody who returns their used oil (which performed well in service) for replacement...just because "you can" is abusing the intent of the policy.

Ha. FCP literally shows you how to do it and regularly advertises this specifically on social media. So no you are wrong. I actually talked to their CEO when they were making some changes to the LRG policy and the abuse he talked about was what I mentioned...not the oil changes and consumables. Please do you homework.

Edit. The oil change "gimmick" is a big part of their success b/c how many folks pay $80 for a LM oil change kit and never return it but have the intent b/c that's the whole point of why they bought it? Very few. Oh and since I'm here I'll add XYZ to my order. Some of the examples that were used in the posts w/r to this by the CEO were spark plugs to name one that were being used for a few mos. I'm probably in the ~$6K range of total purchases from them for my VW fleet over the last ~4 years. It works, I order tons of stuff from them.

 

[ROWEMotorOilUSA]

Well, this post took a lot of turns

If anyone ever has any questions about our products or comparisons against other items out there, we are always a DM away to help!

 

[TiGeo]

Well, this post took a lot of turns

If anyone ever has any questions about our products or comparisons against other items out there, we are always a DM away to help!

As it usually is here on the BITOG!