Hey Guys! I'm building up a 4l85e and I'm running into a little issue. I'm trying to rollerize the reaction carrier but I cant find a bearing that fits over the sun gear. I've read an article saying to use a late TH350 bearing but no luck. I tried different manufactures (ac delco, sonnax, etc..) but the bearing will not slide over the sun gear. Again this is a 5-pinion planetary set from 99+ unit. Thanks in advance
Rollerizing 4L85E Reaction Carrier
- Thread starter chevystr383
- Start date
The TH350 bearing won't just slip over the Sun Gear, You have to work the bearing over it. The bearing will run in the center of the Sun Gear.
You gotta watch for the bearing getting into the teeth of the Sun Gear.....The Sun Gear can be machined for clearance if needed.
You're not confined to machining the bearing pocket into the Reaction Carrier.....It can also be machined into the Output Carrier to center the bearing in the relief on the Sun Gear.
You gotta watch for the bearing getting into the teeth of the Sun Gear.....The Sun Gear can be machined for clearance if needed.
You're not confined to machining the bearing pocket into the Reaction Carrier.....It can also be machined into the Output Carrier to center the bearing in the relief on the Sun Gear.
Torrington/Koyo makes the bearing for GM & Sonnax.
Thanks Clinebarger. I know its been a year but I'm just getting around to putting this together. I rollerized the reaction carrier and endplay is good in that area but my front endplay is where I'm having issues. If I take out the shim (0.041) out from underneath the sungear, my total front endplay with a .075 pump washer is at .015 " . Any ideas Cline? Im using the late Press fit sungear shaft from CK. Can I run this without the shim ?
Again, sorry for the late reply.
Guess you're running a Aftermarket Rollerized Forward Hub for the .041" shim under the sungear to even affect "Front Unit Endplay".
If all the rear Geartrian parts & Center Support are '99 & up.....The Shim is required......
*Removing the Shim will throw off "Rear Unit Endplay"....Loosening it by .041".....If you readjust for this, The Sungear would end up .041" higher putting you right back where you started. But the Sungear will no longer be centered in the Carriers.
Did you mistakenly get a '97/'98 Sungear Shaft? Page 6 of this document explains the differences HERE
You really have to watch for Parts Mismatch on this unit, Once you KNOW all the Rear Unit parts are correct which includes the Sungear Shaft & the "Rear Unit Endplay" is set correctly, Focus solely on the "Front Unit Endplay" by......
A. Make sure the Forward Hub (Assuming it's a Roller Design) isn't pushing up on the Forward Drum more than .005"-.008".
B. Make sure that Direct Frictions are fully laced, Especially with 6 Directs using a machined Direct Piston!
Tech Tip.....Stack the Direct, Forward, Overdrive/Overrun Drum without Frictions in order to check & adjust "Front Unit Endplay".
*Don't need the Intermediate Frictions & Steels at this time.
*Install the empty Direct Drum onto the Sungear Shaft.
*Place the Forward Hub over the Main Shaft with the Bearing toward the Direct Drum, Front Forward Hub Thrust Washer is next.
*Place the empty Forward Drum over the Forward Hub making sure it sits on the Thrust Washer.
*Thrust Bearing on top of the Forward Drum.
*I usually have the Overdrive carrier & Overrun Housing fully assembled for this as no Frictions need to be laced for this step.
*The Overdrive Clutch Housing does not need to be installed!!
*Place the O/D Carrier, Overrun Housing, & Input Shaft into the Forward Drum.
*Pump to Case Gasket
*Install the Pump Assembly without the lathe cut seal But WITH the selectable Thrust Washer.
*Torque a couple Pump To Case bolt to 18 ft-lbs.....Do it slowly as you don't want to crush anything, If the pump doesn't sit right on the Pump to Case Gasket, Don't bother torqueing the bolts!
*Check Front Unit Endplay.
There aren't many situations where a "red" .075" selectable washer is too much, There only one selectable thinner than the "red" one.
After checking all this & you still can't get Front Unit Endplay.....Install the Stock Forward Hub & retest, If you now have Endplay.....The issue lies in the Aftermarket Forward Hub & machining of the area that the Bearing rides on will be necessary!
You can run the next thinner (Thinnest) Selectable Thrust if you like.....But I do not recommend going any thinner.
You need about .005" greater Front Unit Endplay than what the Rear Unit Endplay was....Let's say you have .005" Rear Unit......You will need .010" Front Unit Endplay....Even .015" would work with the above numbers.
If all the rear Geartrian parts & Center Support are '99 & up.....The Shim is required......
*Removing the Shim will throw off "Rear Unit Endplay"....Loosening it by .041".....If you readjust for this, The Sungear would end up .041" higher putting you right back where you started. But the Sungear will no longer be centered in the Carriers.
Did you mistakenly get a '97/'98 Sungear Shaft? Page 6 of this document explains the differences HERE
You really have to watch for Parts Mismatch on this unit, Once you KNOW all the Rear Unit parts are correct which includes the Sungear Shaft & the "Rear Unit Endplay" is set correctly, Focus solely on the "Front Unit Endplay" by......
A. Make sure the Forward Hub (Assuming it's a Roller Design) isn't pushing up on the Forward Drum more than .005"-.008".
B. Make sure that Direct Frictions are fully laced, Especially with 6 Directs using a machined Direct Piston!
Tech Tip.....Stack the Direct, Forward, Overdrive/Overrun Drum without Frictions in order to check & adjust "Front Unit Endplay".
*Don't need the Intermediate Frictions & Steels at this time.
*Install the empty Direct Drum onto the Sungear Shaft.
*Place the Forward Hub over the Main Shaft with the Bearing toward the Direct Drum, Front Forward Hub Thrust Washer is next.
*Place the empty Forward Drum over the Forward Hub making sure it sits on the Thrust Washer.
*Thrust Bearing on top of the Forward Drum.
*I usually have the Overdrive carrier & Overrun Housing fully assembled for this as no Frictions need to be laced for this step.
*The Overdrive Clutch Housing does not need to be installed!!
*Place the O/D Carrier, Overrun Housing, & Input Shaft into the Forward Drum.
*Pump to Case Gasket
*Install the Pump Assembly without the lathe cut seal But WITH the selectable Thrust Washer.
*Torque a couple Pump To Case bolt to 18 ft-lbs.....Do it slowly as you don't want to crush anything, If the pump doesn't sit right on the Pump to Case Gasket, Don't bother torqueing the bolts!
*Check Front Unit Endplay.
There aren't many situations where a "red" .075" selectable washer is too much, There only one selectable thinner than the "red" one.
After checking all this & you still can't get Front Unit Endplay.....Install the Stock Forward Hub & retest, If you now have Endplay.....The issue lies in the Aftermarket Forward Hub & machining of the area that the Bearing rides on will be necessary!
You can run the next thinner (Thinnest) Selectable Thrust if you like.....But I do not recommend going any thinner.
You need about .005" greater Front Unit Endplay than what the Rear Unit Endplay was....Let's say you have .005" Rear Unit......You will need .010" Front Unit Endplay....Even .015" would work with the above numbers.
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Thanks Cline , I believe the problem lies in the CK press in sungear shaft. I ordered a late piece and what I received was what I believe is a 97-98 shaft. So i picked up a 99 + sungear shaft for a local trans shop for measuring and my end play seems to be good! I need to play with it to bring it in a bit but so far this is what i have : .015 endplay with a .075 pump shim, without the rear gear shim , 97-98 ck shaft and a 97-98 center support. This is using the rollerized extreme duty sonnax hub with no machining to the hub. Though i removed the shim, do you think I will have any sungear wear issues? will my rear endplay be affected?
Go back over what I posted....DO NOT mismatch parts!
Sure....Using a '97/'98 center support will allow you to leave the .041" shim out while keeping Rear Unit Endplay in check...But the Sungear is no longer centered in the '99+ Output & Reaction Carriers!
If you want to stick with '97/'98 parts.....You will need '97/'98 Carriers....Though you could run ANY TH400/Earlier 4L80E Carriers long as the Lo/Reverse Band matches the Reaction Carrier.....Smooth Carrier finish with a Smooth Band, Rough carrier finish with a TH400 Band.
Sure....Using a '97/'98 center support will allow you to leave the .041" shim out while keeping Rear Unit Endplay in check...But the Sungear is no longer centered in the '99+ Output & Reaction Carriers!
If you want to stick with '97/'98 parts.....You will need '97/'98 Carriers....Though you could run ANY TH400/Earlier 4L80E Carriers long as the Lo/Reverse Band matches the Reaction Carrier.....Smooth Carrier finish with a Smooth Band, Rough carrier finish with a TH400 Band.
Thanks Cline, I want to definitely use the my 5-pinion gearset but I thought i can use a 97-98 support and my current press fit sungear shaft from CK 97-98
"The 99up model 4L80E’s have a different center support, planetary carriers, sun shaft, and also use a new shim under the rear bearing. The new planets have slight longer gear teeth (.075”) than previous design, and the changes described on this page were required to “re-center” the geartrain. Mismatched parts can cause too tight or too loose geartrain endplay. The details of these parts differences are listed below. 2nd design shaft and support (used as a set) have been used to replace 3rd design by leaving out shim during assembly. "
"The 99up model 4L80E’s have a different center support, planetary carriers, sun shaft, and also use a new shim under the rear bearing. The new planets have slight longer gear teeth (.075”) than previous design, and the changes described on this page were required to “re-center” the geartrain. Mismatched parts can cause too tight or too loose geartrain endplay. The details of these parts differences are listed below. 2nd design shaft and support (used as a set) have been used to replace 3rd design by leaving out shim during assembly. "
While it will work, You're spending all this time & money just to take a shortcut?? Little tips like that are to get Work/Farm trucks back on the road, Not blueprinted performance builds.
Thank you Clinebarger for your honesty and insight. Trust me I’m trying to build this unit as stout as possible. I’m asking questions for myself and anyone else who may run into something similar to this. I’m waiting for CK for some parts. Meanwhile have you done the early main shaft conversion to a late case for Better oil flow? I read a very detailed article on Ls1 tech and wanted to know if this was worth the work. Thanks in advance
The Fluted Sun Gear Shaft Bushings definitely wear, I've been using Dura-Bond coated bushings & the few high power 4L80E's I've freshened have NO bushing wear.
But even the non-fluted Sun Gear Shaft bushings in the Early 4L80E would wear significantly faster than in a TH400. The 4L80E Forward Drum is not supported very well allowing it to have some radial runout.....When the Forward Clutch applies.....This runout is slightly compounded by the Forward Hub being held off center by the Forward Clutches.
On a TH400.....The Forward Drum is fully supported by both Stator Support bushing via the Input Shaft.
This was a engineering flaw that's inherent to all 4L80E's, Hydramatic should have incorporated a Anchored Support for the Forward Drum, But that would've resulted in a transmission that rivals a Allison 1000 in size.
OR....They could've added a New Venture/New Process OD Unit on the back of the TH400 like Chrysler did with the A727 & A904 units as GM had a stack in New Venture just like Chrysler did......But the TH400 main case is a bit longer than a A727/A904 because the Intermediate Clutch-Intermediate Sprag in the TH400, The A727 has a 2nd/Intemediate Band that wraps around the Direct Drum....Basically no space is taken up by the Intermediate holding member of the Direct Drum.
At the end of the day.....I have VERY few comebacks that I would say are lubrication related on Late/Center Lube 4L80E's. Bushing quality & Installation of the Bushings is very mission critical to this unit. If you're driving them in with a hammer & subsequently having to Hone/Resize them is putting you behind the 8-ball before you even install the unit.
I'm sure you've red about the Lube Orifice modifications I do on Late Units, It works well.
But even the non-fluted Sun Gear Shaft bushings in the Early 4L80E would wear significantly faster than in a TH400. The 4L80E Forward Drum is not supported very well allowing it to have some radial runout.....When the Forward Clutch applies.....This runout is slightly compounded by the Forward Hub being held off center by the Forward Clutches.
On a TH400.....The Forward Drum is fully supported by both Stator Support bushing via the Input Shaft.
This was a engineering flaw that's inherent to all 4L80E's, Hydramatic should have incorporated a Anchored Support for the Forward Drum, But that would've resulted in a transmission that rivals a Allison 1000 in size.
OR....They could've added a New Venture/New Process OD Unit on the back of the TH400 like Chrysler did with the A727 & A904 units as GM had a stack in New Venture just like Chrysler did......But the TH400 main case is a bit longer than a A727/A904 because the Intermediate Clutch-Intermediate Sprag in the TH400, The A727 has a 2nd/Intemediate Band that wraps around the Direct Drum....Basically no space is taken up by the Intermediate holding member of the Direct Drum.
At the end of the day.....I have VERY few comebacks that I would say are lubrication related on Late/Center Lube 4L80E's. Bushing quality & Installation of the Bushings is very mission critical to this unit. If you're driving them in with a hammer & subsequently having to Hone/Resize them is putting you behind the 8-ball before you even install the unit.
I'm sure you've red about the Lube Orifice modifications I do on Late Units, It works well.
Ok I’ll order some coated bushings from dura bond. I have a shop press and I don’t usually have any issues but now that you mention it the sun gear shaft came from the box honed/sanded. The grit was still on the bushings!!
Cline, I just ordered a complete durabond coated kit from summit. Thanks for the tech tip!! I'll upload pictures of the build as I go. Call me out if you don't see something you like, This is the first high horsepower build. Going behind a N/A big block 800 hp and a new 4500 stall triple disk from PTC.
So Cline here an update. Swapping all the new bushings out with the coated ones
from durabond but I’m going to stick with the sonnax case bushing. I machined the lip off and hopefully that’s adequate for oil flow.
