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RLI 0W-30, 6148 mi,'06 Honda Civic Si
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confused here BOLD is NEW sample and it has 1.77 fuel???
bruce
bruce
I was hooked on the buzz about HOBS for fuel dilution, but after seeing more UOAs I can't justify the cost. Dilution and wear metal improvement is slight, and unimportant unless you plan to keep the car for 200,000+ miles.
Yes, I've seen the extrapolations and explanations on RLI's superiority, but I still can't bring myself to buy it. RI_RS4, the data you compiled was extremely helpful for laying out RLI's real-life characteristics, I thank you for that.
I use Amsoil and also use V-Power exclusively (with FP+ every tank). UOA to come in a few months. It will be an interesting comparison, no?
Yes, I've seen the extrapolations and explanations on RLI's superiority, but I still can't bring myself to buy it. RI_RS4, the data you compiled was extremely helpful for laying out RLI's real-life characteristics, I thank you for that.
I use Amsoil and also use V-Power exclusively (with FP+ every tank). UOA to come in a few months. It will be an interesting comparison, no?
Originally Posted By: bruce381
confused here BOLD is NEW sample and it has 1.77 fuel???
bruce
That is correct, plaintype (to the left) is the first UOA using Mobil 1 EP, boldtype (to the right) is RLI. The UOAs seem to show a fuel dilution problem, regardless of oil used. If I can get that resolved, I think everything else will improve accordingly.
I generally strive for lower rpms (shift at 3k) and greater fuel economy (average 30mpg), so it's safe to assume this engine has been run more conservatively than many others. I'll take Joe's suggestion and try to plan a longer duration trip every so often to give the oil a chance to dry out. It's good to start seeing some UOAs on this engine; keep them coming.
I'll be doing a full oil change today with the same RLI 0w-30, Amsoil EaO oil filter, and a non-OE paper air filter (still looking for one). I've been using a Fram SureDrain valve, which may be causing a fair amount of old oil to be retained. I'll see just how much it holds back today.
confused here BOLD is NEW sample and it has 1.77 fuel???
bruce
That is correct, plaintype (to the left) is the first UOA using Mobil 1 EP, boldtype (to the right) is RLI. The UOAs seem to show a fuel dilution problem, regardless of oil used. If I can get that resolved, I think everything else will improve accordingly.
I generally strive for lower rpms (shift at 3k) and greater fuel economy (average 30mpg), so it's safe to assume this engine has been run more conservatively than many others. I'll take Joe's suggestion and try to plan a longer duration trip every so often to give the oil a chance to dry out. It's good to start seeing some UOAs on this engine; keep them coming.
I'll be doing a full oil change today with the same RLI 0w-30, Amsoil EaO oil filter, and a non-OE paper air filter (still looking for one). I've been using a Fram SureDrain valve, which may be causing a fair amount of old oil to be retained. I'll see just how much it holds back today.
OC -
Yeah, even if you don't drive more aggressively (I tend to shift at 4500-5000 once the car is warmed up), a good drive at a higher engine speed at a steady RPM has got to help lower that fuel build-up.
For me, I'm not truly worried about wear metals. But I definitely want to see viscosity holding strong...I don't want anything seizing up when I'm doing 8000rpm runs due to lubrication failure.
Joe
Yeah, even if you don't drive more aggressively (I tend to shift at 4500-5000 once the car is warmed up), a good drive at a higher engine speed at a steady RPM has got to help lower that fuel build-up.
For me, I'm not truly worried about wear metals. But I definitely want to see viscosity holding strong...I don't want anything seizing up when I'm doing 8000rpm runs due to lubrication failure.
Joe
OC, are you planning to leave the EaO filter on for more than one interval? I would love to see UOAs of the first and second OCIs with it. I want to use one (for multiple intervals) but I'm a little wary of its advertised claims.
Amsoil also states that all extended use properties of the EaO are nullified if Amsoil oil isn't used. Seems bogus, but I guess they're just trying to cover their asses.
Amsoil also states that all extended use properties of the EaO are nullified if Amsoil oil isn't used. Seems bogus, but I guess they're just trying to cover their asses.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
...I wonder if running the high octane fuel, even if MFR recc'd, is part of the culprit. Resistance to detonation and burn can equal higher chances of condensation and entry into the oil.
I wonder if 89 instead of 91 would help, so long as knocking is not noted...
JMH
What does Honda spec., octane wise, for the Si?
I don't like the idea of driving hard, just to burn off any excess fuel that may be in the oil, prior to sampling. If you have a driving routine, I would suggest sticking to your normal pattern. My routine happens to be mostly short-trips mixed with WOT. So I obtain my UAO sample following one of the short-trips.
I too am curious as to what may be the main culprit when it comes to fuel dilution.
Is it because of the way the vehicle is initially "broken-in?" Is it more problematic on vehicles with a "higher" compression ratio? How does the fuels octane rating, or the introduction of ethanol into the gas, affect dilution? What about the oils post OCI viscosity, and its relation to fuel dilution?
-Probably has something to do with "all of the above" + some more factors...
...I wonder if running the high octane fuel, even if MFR recc'd, is part of the culprit. Resistance to detonation and burn can equal higher chances of condensation and entry into the oil.
I wonder if 89 instead of 91 would help, so long as knocking is not noted...
JMH
What does Honda spec., octane wise, for the Si?
I don't like the idea of driving hard, just to burn off any excess fuel that may be in the oil, prior to sampling. If you have a driving routine, I would suggest sticking to your normal pattern. My routine happens to be mostly short-trips mixed with WOT. So I obtain my UAO sample following one of the short-trips.
I too am curious as to what may be the main culprit when it comes to fuel dilution.
Is it because of the way the vehicle is initially "broken-in?" Is it more problematic on vehicles with a "higher" compression ratio? How does the fuels octane rating, or the introduction of ethanol into the gas, affect dilution? What about the oils post OCI viscosity, and its relation to fuel dilution?
-Probably has something to do with "all of the above" + some more factors...
Fuel dilution can cause irreversible "damage" that cannot simply be burned off. An oil that has crashed won't be saved by trying to burn off the fuel that is still present. Running high rpm can even accelerate wear. This isn't the same circumstance as water which can burn off completely.
Also, fuel dilution is used to help reduce emissions.
Also, fuel dilution is used to help reduce emissions.
benjamming, I was wondering about that. Thanks for not letting me cling to the tiniest shred of reasoning that might allow me to have regular, guilt-free runs to redline.
DmanWho, the Si has an 11:1 compression ratio and needs 91 octane fuel. I haven't tried anything less, and wouldn't bother. Break-in was a little different for this engine. I bought it 600 miles from home and spent 14 hours driving it back, varying speed/rpms all the time and making stops every two hours. The engine only burned BP Premium for its first 20k miles, then Shell V-Power to present; I don't think there's any ethanol in U.S. V-Power.
I hope to find a correctable cause for the high fuel dilution, but it may end up being a characteristic of this engine's emissions controls and my driving style.
DmanWho, the Si has an 11:1 compression ratio and needs 91 octane fuel. I haven't tried anything less, and wouldn't bother. Break-in was a little different for this engine. I bought it 600 miles from home and spent 14 hours driving it back, varying speed/rpms all the time and making stops every two hours. The engine only burned BP Premium for its first 20k miles, then Shell V-Power to present; I don't think there's any ethanol in U.S. V-Power.
I hope to find a correctable cause for the high fuel dilution, but it may end up being a characteristic of this engine's emissions controls and my driving style.
ocspray, you didn't use the Dyson lab for fuel info? The rest of your report looks a lot like the Dyson reports. Did your source used closed cup test?
Originally Posted By: Al
Is this a special RL oil. RL normally has a boat load of moly.
I've never seen high levels of Mo in RLI's xW30s. In fact, this report's Mo level looks inflated by the residual M1 to me.
Originally Posted By: Al
Is this a special RL oil. RL normally has a boat load of moly.
I've never seen high levels of Mo in RLI's xW30s. In fact, this report's Mo level looks inflated by the residual M1 to me.
Both UOAs have been run through MRT Laboratories, with the results interpreted by Terry Dyson. MRT's site doesn't specify closed or open cup, but IIRC, they use closed cup for Terry. The moly probably is from the M1, as I don't remember seeing any moly in RLI's VOAs. I think the next UOA will give a more accurate look at what the RLI oil is doing.
Looks like my air filter options are OE/Honda, K&N, Wix, and (possibly) Amsoil. No Fram, no Supertech, no Purolator; nothing else showing for an Si at the major parts stores. If I missed one, please let me know.
Looks like my air filter options are OE/Honda, K&N, Wix, and (possibly) Amsoil. No Fram, no Supertech, no Purolator; nothing else showing for an Si at the major parts stores. If I missed one, please let me know.
Drat, no Amsoil EAA for the Si. It might be time for a CAI.
Hey guys,
I wasn't advocating doing some extended or harder driving prior to an oil analysis....I was advocating taking at least one drive a week in which your car gets nice a hot and settles in at a higher rpm (i.e. 3000) as opposed to stop-and-go driving where it's experiencing alot of shifting/idling.
And doing that on a regular basis, period.
I had my UOA done at Blackstone labs after they had supposedly taken some actions to help enhance/correct their fuel testing. Mine had neglible amounts of fuel in it. Take that for what it's worth...
Also, I don't know the chemical dynamics of fuel in oil. Does it break-down the oil immediately? Does it break it down the longer it stays in the oil? I don't know. But I'd assume that
preventing fuel from sitting in the oil longer than necessary helps maintain the integrity of the oil, as well as helps to prevent the overall accumulation of fuel in the oil.
Joe
I wasn't advocating doing some extended or harder driving prior to an oil analysis....I was advocating taking at least one drive a week in which your car gets nice a hot and settles in at a higher rpm (i.e. 3000) as opposed to stop-and-go driving where it's experiencing alot of shifting/idling.
And doing that on a regular basis, period.
I had my UOA done at Blackstone labs after they had supposedly taken some actions to help enhance/correct their fuel testing. Mine had neglible amounts of fuel in it. Take that for what it's worth...
Also, I don't know the chemical dynamics of fuel in oil. Does it break-down the oil immediately? Does it break it down the longer it stays in the oil? I don't know. But I'd assume that
preventing fuel from sitting in the oil longer than necessary helps maintain the integrity of the oil, as well as helps to prevent the overall accumulation of fuel in the oil.
Joe
Joe, I know what you meant, and I should do it as much for my mental health as anything.
After removing the Fram SureDrain valve, there was a small dribble of oil remaining, but I never noticed how small the actual drain hole is in the valve. While it may not cause much old oil to remain, the valve definitely reduces the normally cathartic flow of used oil which I suppose could leave a little more garbage behind. I've got a good torque wrench and can read, so there's really no worries about destroying the aluminum oil pan; the OE drain plug is back in place.
After removing the Fram SureDrain valve, there was a small dribble of oil remaining, but I never noticed how small the actual drain hole is in the valve. While it may not cause much old oil to remain, the valve definitely reduces the normally cathartic flow of used oil which I suppose could leave a little more garbage behind. I've got a good torque wrench and can read, so there's really no worries about destroying the aluminum oil pan; the OE drain plug is back in place.
Originally Posted By: ocspray
After removing the Fram SureDrain valve, there was a small dribble of oil remaining, but I never noticed how small the actual drain hole is in the valve. While it may not cause much old oil to remain, the valve definitely reduces the normally cathartic flow of used oil which I suppose could leave a little more garbage behind.
-How much garbage would one suspect could *possibly* get left behind?
I have a fumoto valve ready to go in on the next oci, i am assuming that if you change the oil when it is hot most of the garbage will be suspended and will flow out regardless of the hole size, just take a little longer. Am I wrong in thinking this??
After removing the Fram SureDrain valve, there was a small dribble of oil remaining, but I never noticed how small the actual drain hole is in the valve. While it may not cause much old oil to remain, the valve definitely reduces the normally cathartic flow of used oil which I suppose could leave a little more garbage behind.
-How much garbage would one suspect could *possibly* get left behind?
I have a fumoto valve ready to go in on the next oci, i am assuming that if you change the oil when it is hot most of the garbage will be suspended and will flow out regardless of the hole size, just take a little longer. Am I wrong in thinking this??
Originally Posted By: televascular
I was hooked on the buzz about HOBS for fuel dilution,
I've got to comment that it's not just HOBS that reduced my fuel dilution problem, it was the particular 5W40 custom formulation for the RS4 engine that did it, specifically. The same tricks do not work in all engines, but most of the RLI formulations do hold up better, even in the face of dilution.
I agree, however, that when you balance cost vs. engine life, Biosyn may not always make economic sense. This will, of course, change, as production goes up, and cost to the consumer goes down.
I was hooked on the buzz about HOBS for fuel dilution,
I've got to comment that it's not just HOBS that reduced my fuel dilution problem, it was the particular 5W40 custom formulation for the RS4 engine that did it, specifically. The same tricks do not work in all engines, but most of the RLI formulations do hold up better, even in the face of dilution.
I agree, however, that when you balance cost vs. engine life, Biosyn may not always make economic sense. This will, of course, change, as production goes up, and cost to the consumer goes down.
I'd like to echo the comment about HOBS not being the only thing that reduces fuel dilution, and that these products may or may not make economic sense in all cases.
We switched our fleet to the RLI engine oils over the winter, and very initial results are promising re: wear and durability in the face of fuel issues. Our fleet sees heavy towing and/or hauling from cold start, and often for short distances. Our bulk oils were frequently not lasting us 2,000 or even 1,000 miles. I'm excited to see where things go through this summer.
We have reasons beyond just a pure cost tradeoff to use the bio-based products, but in our case it may well make the difference of a year or more extra service from our fleet (that's big to us). We shall see whether cost of itself is also a compelling argument. Hopefully (to me anyway), RLI and similar enterprises can expand their market.
We switched our fleet to the RLI engine oils over the winter, and very initial results are promising re: wear and durability in the face of fuel issues. Our fleet sees heavy towing and/or hauling from cold start, and often for short distances. Our bulk oils were frequently not lasting us 2,000 or even 1,000 miles. I'm excited to see where things go through this summer.
We have reasons beyond just a pure cost tradeoff to use the bio-based products, but in our case it may well make the difference of a year or more extra service from our fleet (that's big to us). We shall see whether cost of itself is also a compelling argument. Hopefully (to me anyway), RLI and similar enterprises can expand their market.
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With a fleet operation, you're certainly in the place to determine if RLI can provide a lower cost of ownership for the fleet than your previous bulk oils.
Good luck.
Good luck.
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