RLI 0W-30, 6148 mi,'06 Honda Civic Si

[ocspray]

Used Oil Analysis: 2006 Honda Civic Si (2.0L, I-4 engine)

Mobil 1 oil filter (new at oil change)
Honda OE air filter (new at oil change)
Shell V-Power Premium fuel exclusively

6148 miles on oil sample (OCI at 15% on Honda's Maintenance Minder)
25720 total miles / no modifications
Valves were adjusted (they were slightly loose) and new OE spark plugs installed (old plugs looked ok) at the beginning of this interval.
Oil in use for 6 months (winter thru early spring - Kansas), mainly highway use

Sampled Oil: RLI Bio-Synthetic 0w30 PCMO, with 1pt makeup oil

New values in BOLD, last UOA listed to the left for comparison.

Wear Metals - (ppm units)
45: Iron 23
8: Copper 3
0: Tin 0
9: Lead 6
2: Chrome 1
0: Nickel 0
9: Alum 5
0: Ti 0
0: Silver 0

Additive Metals - (ppm units)
2376: Calcium 1877
20: Magnesium 11
1048: Zinc 910
712: Phosphorus 937
0000: Barium 0
108: Molybdynum 11
0000: Antimony 243

Contaminant Metals - (ppm units)
14: Silicon 11
16: Sodium 10
112: Boron 21
000: Potassium 0
2: Vanadium 1

Physical and Other Tests - (unit values vary; not listed on lab results)
50.1: V40C 45.6
8.70: V100C 8.4
2.56: TAN 3.00
260: Flash 265
33: Oxidation 148
18: NIT 14
584: KF 561
3.80: TBN 3.5
1.81: Fuel 1.77
000: Soot 0
2.62: Glycol 0
136: vndx 163
30: sulfate byproduct 129

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The results could be better, but generally speaking, the new oil is doing better, even taking into account the shorter drain interval. Some residual Mobil 1 from the last oil change probably had an effect on the above results. The change in glycol suggests that my first sample was contaminated and that my new collection method is better. Fuel dilution is still pretty awful, but I haven't had any trouble codes or other signs of damage, so I'm going to start working through the factory service manual to identify any sources.

Until I see better UOAs, I'm going with a 6000 mile OCI. If I can correct the fuel dilution problem, that should change. I'm working with Terry Dyson to make improvements, and he asked that I pass along some some helpful information. When submitting a sample to him for analysis, he appreciates having as much information about the engine, oil, and any other variables before starting his work to save time and so he can provide a better interpretation.

 

[Al]

Flash of 265 is terrible. I would guess fuel dilutionis even worse than stated. Is this a special RL oil. RL normally has a boat load of moly. Did you have the vehicle totally warmed up (hot) when you took the sample?

 

[ocspray]

I took the sample with a vacuum extractor through the dipstick port immediately following 20 minutes of driving.

 

[simple_gifts]

Al, RLI, not RL

Of course, had it been RL, the oil would be taking the blame....

 

[ocspray]

Yes, it's RLI, not RL. I should've clarified.

 

[JHZR2]

wow, fuel dilution galore, but at least no glycol... why was there ever glycol in the oil? something is odd, as given the low K and Na, I have to think that maybe the old glycol number was wrong, especially given that there is now zero.

You have to do valve adjustments on this engine???!? Wow, 1983 all over again. They wear loose, and at least on MB diesels, they tend to loosen up around 25-30k, so it was the right time to do it. Why do the spark plugs, are OE coppers? You said they looked OK, was the gap in spec? Why not reuse them?

23 Fe isnt doing anything bad, but then again, I wouldnt consider it all that great either.

Good luck,

JMH

 

[DmanWho]

Have you considered adding (an extra) upper cylinder lube to the Shell V-Power fuel?

My UOA's showed no worrisome fuel dilution, while using Chevron w/ Techron (exclusively), plus 4 to 6oz. of 2/3MMO & 1/3LUCL mix in the 2.0L SX4.

I'm in that same 1983

, with my valves too!

 

[Audi Junkie]

I know Terry was interested in UOAs on engines using v-Power exclusively. v-Power was made for v-tech engines, fwiw.

It's neat to see a test for Sb included in a report, and the reason why is obvious. I wonder how many other oils have it and it's missing from lab results....like oils that have neither boron nor magnesium, maybe they have antimony?

I'm in the midst of a Honda B-series valve adjustment and it's my understanding they tighten up over service.

 

[ocspray]

JHZR2 - I used a funnel that I believed was clean to fill the last, high glycol sample bottle. I later learned someone had made a rare effort to care for her car and used that funnel to add washer fluid. For this sample, I used a very clean Vacula vacuum bleeder to draw the oil through very clean tubing.

By the time I removed some trim to get to the spark plugs, it seemed worthwhile to adjust the valves. They were either in spec at the loose end of the range or just out, so I adjusted them. The OE NGK iridium plugs appeared to be fine, but changing them was an attempt to solve the fuel dilution problem. Since it's a pain to change plugs and it's not recommended to check the gap (too easy to damage them), I installed a new set. Since the change didn't help, the old plugs are probably fine.

 

[JHZR2]

Interest I cant imagine that a visibly clean funnel with slight glycol residues could cause such a spike, and even if it did, where are the Na and K numbers?

Id still wonder about lab error, but since it is a non-issue, hen no worries.

Thanks for the link to the valve adjustment, it was a neat read. Not really any different than my 83 and 85 MB though... simple and effective.

Does honda provide a way to measure timing chain wear via lineup of the gears? I thought that was a neat thing for MB to do.

Best,

JMH

 

[dcoyne78]

Try a Fram paper air filter and maybe change out your PCV Valve, the PCV helped with fuel dilution in my Prius and I have read that the paper air filter helps as well.

 

[ocspray]

Audi Junkie, other than needing to make a socket-on-a-stick, adjusting the valves was pretty easy. I forgot to mention, the only K20Z3 engines I know of to have had the valves adjusted (mine and the Temple of VTEC project car) had slightly loose valves. I'm not sure how B-series valves wear.

JHZR2, maybe the glycol was a lab error, or someone at the M1 plant got rid of some glycol contaminated Dex-Cool. It appears to be gone now, and I hope it stays that way.

The Honda Maintenance Minder system is in place so no distance/time schedule is available, which is a shame. Chain wear is determined by measuring the auto-tensioner's position, which doesn't look like much fun. Sounds like MB got it right.

 

[Bror Jace]

ocspray, I'm sure Terry told you to change the air filter. He told me as well ... although I delayed a couple months in doing so.

Fuel dilution is typical in the current generation Hondas. I thought it might have something to do with the so-so quality ethanol blended fuels I buy ... but you are using the good stuff.

Also, my 90% city driving has been replaced by 75% highway driving (albeit for less than 20 minutes) so I'm not sure I can blame stop-and-go traffic, either.

My last UOA with PenzPlat (posted just days ago) was pretty good except for a spike in aluminum. I expect my next result (Havoline, running April through August) to be even better as it will be an all warm weather run.

I would never let my maintenance minder number drop below 30%. Honda doesn't want your motor to run 300,000 miles ... nor be 90+% fresh at the 100,000 mile mark.

 

[addyguy]

With all the insults this oil had to endure, it has held up well. It seems that this oil does deserve a rep for handling excess fuel well. I'm impressed.

Starting to NOT be impressed with how Honda's are running these days. They used to be one of the 'easiest' car on oil....now they chew it up and spit it out like fuel-ladened garbage....

 

[RI_RS4]

Dman, Did you use Terry's lab for your analysis of fuel dilution?

 

[VeeDubb]

Originally Posted By: addyguy


Starting to NOT be impressed with how Honda's are running these days. They used to be one of the 'easiest' car on oil....now they chew it up and spit it out like fuel-ladened garbage....


I don't think this is unique to Honda. I think with the drive toward squeezing out maximum power with the minimal amount of fuel, engines are being tuned this way now.

 

[benjamming]

Originally Posted By: VeeDubb
Originally Posted By: addyguy


Starting to NOT be impressed with how Honda's are running these days. They used to be one of the 'easiest' car on oil....now they chew it up and spit it out like fuel-ladened garbage....


I don't think this is unique to Honda. I think with the drive toward squeezing out maximum power with the minimal amount of fuel, engines are being tuned this way now.


Lower emissions.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: VeeDubb

I don't think this is unique to Honda. I think with the drive toward squeezing out maximum power with the minimal amount of fuel, engines are being tuned this way now.


Yep, good point... higher power density means something else takes a brunt at a greater rate. Thermodynamic efficiency has only increased by a piddly amount, so there is still LOTS of waste heat.

And let's not forget that this is an Si, tuned for performance over other constraints. Maybe driven that way, maybe not... but some things must be "given up" as sacrifice for the enhanced performance.

I wonder if running the high octane fuel, even if MFR recc'd, is part of the culprit. Resistance to detonation and burn can equal higher chances of condesnsation and entry into the oil.

I wonder if 89 instead of 91 would help, so long as knocking isnot noted...

JMH

 

[JoeFromPA]

Hey all,

OCspray - I'm sure you saw this, but others may not.

Here's my oil analysis: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...015#Post1081015

People are riding on this Honda engine in this thread, but note I had ~3000 more miles on my oil compared to OCSpray and compare the numbers. I drive ~2000-2500 miles a month....and this sample was taken after several months of cold weather. I get the engine nice and hot, and it rewards me.

I wasn't going to do another oil analysis, but I'm running SSO now (instead of the last generation Series 2000 0w30) and a AMSOIL EA Oil Filter instead of a Purolator PureOne model. I think I'm going to run this out to 13-14k and do another blackstone (I'd love to do Dyson, but can't justify the cost).

OCSpray - If you are willing, I'd recommend two things. AMSOIL 0w30 for a try....and once or twice a week make sure you are doing a good highway run at ~70mph or some sort of steady-state driving at 3000rpms for 15 minutes AFTER the car is fully warmed up. I've heard and read wonderful things about RLI, but my maintenance minder went off at 6250 miles for that UOA I posted...

Good Luck!

Joe

P.s. Just did a quick check. Looks like my main wear metals are about 1/3rd of yours at 50% more mileage. And my flashpoints/viscosity were all stronger while having a similar TBN. My run was from 26.5k-36k, so a little more mileage on my engine. I'm at 42+k now on the SSO 0w30 and consumption looks like it's completely stopped...maybe 1 quart every 5k, hard to tell. Oil has a nice deep gold color on the dipstick.

 

[DmanWho]

Originally Posted By: RI_RS4
Dman, Did you use Terry's lab for your analysis of fuel dilution?

No sir, I did not...

"Don't you judge me!" It's hard to pass on free UOA's!

Now you got me assuming that the difference in "procedure" with Terry's testing, would show a much different value for fuel dilution, than what was reported by the lab I used...

The gasoline I used during my last two OCI's, was Chevron's (ethanol free) 87 octane. Our county, just within the last few weeks, has followed the great State's mandate, and now all gas here contains 10% ethanol.