Ricardo Speaks Diesel vs Hybrid

[Quest]

jonny-b

Truth is, these naysayers constantly bashing Toys for not catching up with diesel technologies but never realise that they indeed makes diesel vehicles (light/medium duty) and are happily sold under the van/light pickup(lorry) market under "hi-ace", "light-ace",etc.I literally grew up riding a 2L NA diesel engine in a 13 passenger Toy "hi-ace" van to and back from school for over a decade....

and then there's land cruiser 4WD diesel, Hino diesel truck division....

Being very careful in testing the waters in NA automotive market these days mean that Honda may take longer to re-introduce hatchback again, or example like: it took them 6+yrs before they finally have the guts to introduce a fit sub-compact hatchback.Ditto with Toy in venturing into the diesel section...


Q.

 

[ekpolk]

Quote:

---

. . .Owning a Prius means you will have to lay down form some dealer only service, but it won't be much. We've had some cars go to 200k before being rotated out and not one unscheduled maintenance. The independent shops are catching on, . . .

---

Gosh Lonnie, why that just can't be true. g20 says hybrids are so complex they can't possibly be reliable. . .

 

[Lonnie]

ekpolk, I think I have to repeat myself. Over 5 years the Prius out of about 10 fleets of vehicles and a gazillion miles is the single most reliable vehicle in the fleet buy a very big margin. The negative statements are made by people with no specific knowledge or experience with the vehicle. I know it looks goofy to some, stands out like an I'm better than you statement, does not get the mileage that even some Prius owners trumpet but it does get really good mileage and it works and above all it's reliable. Friday we put 20 in service and every new driver arrived early. People are starting to give up larger luxo cars to get a Prius and not one person has asked to switch back, not one in almost 5 years. We opened up a second gen Prius that was totaled in an accident and the engine looked great and the transmission looked like brand new inside and would need not new parts other than seals to put it back together. The battery compartment was intact and the car did not explode. This car was hit in the driver's door by a full sized pickup running a red light as the Prius pulled out into the intersection. The pickup was going 44mph. The Prius driver and passenger were taken to the hospital and released after a check up. The Prius did it's job in that accident, just like most modern cars do, and left on the hook. Overall I think the Prius is a completely successful package a vision of future production vehicles, not just future dreams.

 

[Quest]

Lonnie-

I can't be more supportive towards your observations/remarks RE: Prius and many other recent automobile designs. IMHO Prius is now classified as a "tried and true" design and nitpickers can only go so far: from things like "running 0W20 in those engines gonna wear it out far sooner than the electrical motor..." to things like "these hybrids have more complicated trannie than most others..." to "nickel used in these vehicles cannot be recycled(causing environmental concerns) to things like "nickel coming from sweatshop smelters.." and "these battery packs gonna explode if the vehicle being rear-ended..." and so on and so forth.

Yes, there shall always be naysayers in this world but they shall become just like my friendly neighbourhood shadetree mech---> get phased out when EFI comes along just because there isn't anymore carb vehicles for them to make a living on.

I for one have been openly embracing any new technologies that have been "test driven" on the market for several years and those are the ones that may make it through all the real life torture test further down the road.

I don't care if GeeAmm gonna bring back their "Volt" electrical vehicles (they don't seem to have the right direction+vision most of the time anyways...) and frankly speaking, diesel vehicles aren't gonna be what they used to be anymore (that I can guarantee you, try working on a MB Sprinter van and you'll understand what I mean). Yes, there shall be some industrial strongarm who claimed that the "old fashioned designs RE: diesel engines are the only way to go..." (e.g. detroit diesel,etc.) but in reality , they are having an interesting time catching up with their European diesel HD vehicle counterparts such as MAN, DAF, Saab-Scania, Volvo, MB,Renault, etc. or Asian brands such as UD diesel (Nissan trucking divison), Isuzu, Mitsu-FUSO, or even Hyundai in terms of improving their products in terms of efficiency and emissions.

Yes, people tend to embrace whatever old stuff that makes them fell more "comfortable" with and I don't blame them. I can see that clean-burning diesels are already on it's way to become full computer controlled, multi-valve variable timing with super-charger/turbocharger in order to meet the stringent requirements of NA emissions control, and still be able to satisfy the European operator's needs. Are these designs gonna be as easy to service as their old, smoking, sooty (and noisy) old grand-daddy designs....I'm afraid not.
I can see that the old designs being phased out slowly and technologies sold to developing countries such as China, India, etc.

My 2c's worth.

 

[g20ooh]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Can you tell me what's complicated about the hybrids?

---

Just as a start , 16 computers , 3 cooling systems and a service manual that appears to be very much a work in progress .

Contrary to what you hear, a prius has one of the more complicated powertrains out there when you consider the whole system .

---

---

That's baloney.

LITTLE BIT off topic - I think "turkey( hot air roasted)" is a better meat to describe a one size fits all HSD vs DIESEL debate such as you propose here .... esp. if you got the HSD .

A Prius (and the other HSD cars) has a transmission that's roughly as simple as a RWD car/truck's differential.

Sure , every vehicle in the world shows a lower complexity IF you remove the "engine/prime energy converter/storage SYSTEMS" (diesel two) , (HSD FOUR) - from the count as you just did -which makes the count/complexity here inaccurate by huge omission .
BTW , using your method of accounting , the prius has three engines .
Also , if its not more complex, just what exactly do the 15 extra computers do - besides calculate and display an overly optimistic MPG - all the while calculating and recording internally an additional ,different , and lower number ?

No alternator. No starter.

Sure , I just think it , and it starts , and I just wish it, and the battery recharges itself out of thin air ....THERE IS a "starter function" ,and an "charging function" AND there are "components" that perform these functions(and like everything else , are subject to wear and possible failure) .

Glad you brought that up - its one of many reasons I like Hondas approach better or more on topic , a simple diesel .
Lemme see, on a really bad day would I prefer to lose my combination "starter" , "alternator" "transmission","regenerative braking unit" AND forward propulsion SIMULTANEOUSLY OR one at a time .... hmmmm...tough decision...BTW , what does that "thing" cost to replace ?

Gas engine is just as simple/complex as any other, and so on.

Not quite by along shot - and def. enough to matter , but lets do it this way .
"OK" , using your logic , the #1 vehicle to avoid in all the world then MUST be the 2007 EIGHT "speed" AT lexus ls 460 right ? And close behind with (powertrain issues that DO support your contention) would be the toyota 3.5L V6/6 "speed" AT combination ? (With 12 fuel injectors and SIX forward gears) .
Respectfully suggest you become more familiar with the rest of the worlds conventional powertrain choices - others are not having those kinds of problems so while your postion has some validity in the world of toyota , it does not have much outside .

So, why don't you disclose the basis for your intense, and irrational, anti-hybrid bias.

Reread my post's positive comments towards hybrids and what Ricardo points out about hybrids useful , although duty cycle limited role in the future scheme of things .

Newsflash: excessive use of the

emoticon reveals one thing: inability to marhshall real facts or logic to support your position.

Is this where we do the 'Ad Homin' attack thing ? (Goodness , I'm beginning to feel like Charlene Blake - and this is just about "hybrid" vs. diesel .)

Well , I'd be happy to discuss any part of this report or some other of your choosing if you prefer , covering the topic of both hybrid and diesel's future prospects .
I'm here to learn , not sell cars .

Please do report back when some of these things you're trumpeting actually happen. Thusfar, Toyota is has had success in actual reality.

Define success and actual reality - in the Auto Industry it always includes making a profit - a real "net" profit on a powertrain . Also , see European Vehicle Market , - the only market where people have had a limited yet good enough choice (in certain specific situations) between the two .
So far , its looking like a 52 to 3 football game in favor of the diesel .

As far as I'm concerned, you're just writing fiction, nothing more.

If thats how you want characterize GM , Honda ,Ricardo ,UBS go ahead , its your choice . I've backed most of my posts with quotes and links to respectable sources - if you have them , why don't you do the same ?

Here is one I've used in forming my information base that you might be more familiar , or comfortable with .

From ( http://)--- energycommerce.house.gov/reparchives/108/Hearing/05242006hearings1909/Reinert.pdf

Title :

TOYOTA TESTIMONY
By Bill Reinert my add - National Manager , Advanced Technology for Toyota .
ON
"Vehicles and Fuels Technology : Next Generation"
Before the House Subcommitteee on Energy & Air Quality
MAY 24,2006 .

Here are two key quotes ;

" Toyota believes that there is no single fuel or technology that can solve all of society's transportation needs . Simply put , there is no single silver bullet. That is why toyota is pursueing multiple technology paths in our continuing quest to reduce the impact of the automobile on society."

" Our ultimate goal is to produce technologies that can eliminate vehicle emissions and greatly enhance energy secruity .
Thats the role of the hydrogen fuel cell and why toyota considers it one of our key technologies for development .

Hydrogen Fuel Cell

"Fuel Cell vehicles offer the promise of unparalleled operational efficiency , long driving range and a diversity of fuel sources ."

So lemme see , when evaluating the future prospects of diesel , (hydrogen), and "hybrid" technology should I go with GM , Honda , Ricardo , AND Toyota OR one very happy prius owner .....well , as Aldaris said ( after voting ?) You decide !

Diesels will come, eventually. And unless they come with some form of hybrid system, their brakes will continue throw away huge amounts of usable power -- something my Prius doesn't do...

sigh , and every HSD will drag around the weight of PRETTY BIG battery pack , etc


So if I'm getting the same or better fuel economy - either with or without a renewable energy source - why would I want or need the HSD and all its disadvantages ?

Now , the big one , speaking of throwing away and HSD .

Could you please direct me to any source including and esp. toyota that discusses what we are going to do with all these HSD batteries when the vehicles reach the end of their useful economic lives ?

So far , it looks like its going to go the way of some other "battery recycling programs" ie collect them for recycling and then dump them in some second or third world country and don't talk about it .

I WOULD really like to see(I really , really, mean this) something about how toyota has thought this out and has a better plan than this in place or very soon to be .

On a more positive note , when do we get toyota diesels , and E85 capable vehicles ?

 

[g20ooh]

Quote:

---

Ya, your diesel and the onboard chemical plant are not going

---

Ummmm well , yea , I saw Mr. Lutz's comment but tell me whats worse , a really big battery pac that qualifies for an evironmental EPA SUPERFUND SITE CLEAN UP or a little urea or in Honda's case a little self generated H2O ?

Now don't go picken' on the cats. - unless you first account for whats going on with conventional gassers - all of them .


You want to know something thats really hard to find?

Try to get that study that what was it , identified something like 3,000 plus compounds coming out the tailpipe (200x? conventional gassers USA) of which 500-600 where clearly highly undesirable and another 5-600 were unknown but likely to be bad - like maybe really bad -and this group was because of the cats. .

 

[ekpolk]

Quote:

---

Newsflash: excessive use of the emoticon reveals one thing: inability to marhshall real facts or logic to support your position.

Is this where we do the 'Ad Homin' attack thing ? (Goodness , I'm beginning to feel like Charlene Blake - and this is just about "hybrid" vs. diesel .)

---

Nope. Ad hominem refers to arguments that attack the opponent, rather than his message. I pointed out that your use of the subject foolish emoticon reveals that you are replacing meaningful substance (which your arguments lack), with empty laughter. I'm not attacking you (ad hominem), I'm going after what you have to say, because much of it's incorrect. Your reliance on silly emoticons only makes it easier for me to make my point.

BTW, for the last three weeks, I've been averaging almost 52 mpg (75% city) on cheaper-than-diesel 87 octane. How'd you do???

 

[ekpolk]

Quote:

---

sigh , and every HSD will drag around the weight of PRETTY BIG battery pack , etc


So if I'm getting the same or better fuel economy - either with or without a renewable energy source - why would I want or need the HSD and all its disadvantages ?

Now , the big one , speaking of throwing away and HSD .

Could you please direct me to any source including and esp. toyota that discusses what we are going to do with all these HSD batteries when the vehicles reach the end of their useful economic lives ?

So far , it looks like its going to go the way of some other "battery recycling programs" ie collect them for recycling and then dump them in some second or third world country and don't talk about it .

I WOULD really like to see(I really , really, mean this) something about how toyota has thought this out and has a better plan than this in place or very soon to be .

On a more positive note , when do we get toyota diesels , and E85 capable vehicles ?

---

"Pretty big battery pack"??? No again. In a Prius, it's hardly larger than a small-medium suitcase. It weighs, I understand, about 40-something pounds. Not a feather, but it's hardly fair to call it "big" and it weighs about as much as seven to eight gallons of gas. Please...

HSD and "all its disadvantages"? Yep, those "disadvantages" are driving HSD buyers away in droves. Sorry, but we just not seeing 'em in real-world use.

Battery recycling? Isn't it a little early to be hammering Toyota for misconduct they haven't committed yet??? That, of course, is fully consistent with an anti-Toyota and anti-hybrid agenda.

By the way, Toyota actually had two-way pipeline program in place at the inception of the Prius in the US, but has actually throttled it back since ... ummmm ... almost no batteries are failing yet.

We'll get Toyota diesels and E85 cars at exactly the time that Toyota decides it's in their best interest to offer them.

 

[Shannow]

Ricardo is one of my heroes, and his institute does some exceptional work.

I do think that they are blinkered to a greater or lesser degree.

As always, look at the source of comments, to see where they are coming from.

 

[crw]

Quote:

---

Dr Borroni-Bird said that hydrogen-powered and electric cars would develop alongside each other, and that GM would have a “cost-effective” fuel cell car by 2010. It will trial 100 fuel cell Equinox SUVs across the world in a market test for the car --"




Now for the "Quote of the Year" - so far .

"-But GM does not want to be drawn into the debate over producing electricity and hydrogen cleanly. “We will build a car that runs on renewable energy, but it’s not our responsibility to produce the fuels,” said a GM spokesman"

• 
  
  Did you hear that? I THINK i just heard a biiiig "decouple" - better late than never - sometimes .
  
  
  
  

  ---

• 
  
  
  I just got back from an engineering conference where the GM Sequel was on display, including a bare chassis with just the hydrogen tanks, the fuel-cell, and electric motors exposed. Interesting stuff... This was the car that they recently drove 300 miles on regular public roads using only the hydrogen. One thing that surprized me was the size of this vehicle... it's huge. Well, it's a big "crossover" type vehicle. It reminds me of the Chrysler Pacifica.
  
  Anyway, the big $64 thousand dollar question ($64 Trillion dollar question?) is, can we find a method to produce hydrogen cheaply and efficiently?
  
  As you all know, hydrogen is not a fuel "source" (unless you could just pump it out of the ground or pull it out of a mine), it's an energy carrier. It doesn't solve the energy problem, it just provides a new way to use it. If we do find ways to produce hydrogen, then buy GM stock. If not, sell!
  
  That is, I heard that producing hydrogen from electricity is 17% effective. There are all sorts of experiments going on with using algae, photovoltaics, etc., but I wonder if you'd need to run your photovoltaic system for a month to produce enough hydrogen to drive 100 feet...?
  
  I will say that on this and many other fronts, the future is looking very "interesting."

 

[g20ooh]

Quote:

---

I just got back from an engineering conference where the GM Sequel was on display, including a bare chassis with just the hydrogen tanks, the fuel-cell, and electric motors exposed. Interesting stuff... This was the car that they recently drove 300 miles on regular public roads using only the hydrogen. One thing that surprized me was the size of this vehicle... it's huge. Well, it's a big "crossover" type vehicle. It reminds me of the Chrysler Pacifica.

Anyway, the big $64 thousand dollar question ($64 Trillion dollar question?) is, can we find a method to produce hydrogen cheaply and efficiently?

As you all know, hydrogen is not a fuel "source" (unless you could just pump it out of the ground or pull it out of a mine), it's an energy carrier. It doesn't solve the energy problem, it just provides a new way to use it. If we do find ways to produce hydrogen, then buy GM stock. If not, sell!

That is, I heard that producing hydrogen from electricity is 17% effective. There are all sorts of experiments going on with using algae, photovoltaics, etc., but I wonder if you'd need to run your photovoltaic system for a month to produce enough hydrogen to drive 100 feet...?

I will say that on this and many other fronts, the future is looking very "interesting."

---

Hello crw ,
YEP to all that . Was that the conference in what was it , Ann Arbor ? I darn near ran over to that one .
And on that last one of yours , 'interesting' in more ways than one - and I'm not just talking about who and in what fashion comes out ahead etc in the Automotive OEM game .

Amongst other things , its going to be 'interesting' in just the improvements of all the conventional stuff as well and not necc. the 'more out there' stuff . I forgot to label it , but that VW PR release on their new 1.4L ( vs their 'old' 1.6L ) was meant to illustrate that - you know a little bit here and a little bit there - with some good 'ole fashion , solid , grind it out engineering behind it ....and you can end up with a very useable improvement much larger than the 1.5% 'traditional' annual improvement rate that the UBS/Ricardo report briefly mentions .
Which leads in a sense to another 'other' interesting thing for the future - prices (energy - esp oil) .If you are old enough to remember the 'first energy' ( start 6OCTOBER73) and the 'second energy' crises (start ??1978) AND the period after ..... well , the really short version is that right around the time some changes started to have effect and some other things started to look feasible or worth pursuing .....surprise , surprise , we start yet another run of declining (relative) and 'cheap' oil prices ......
its almost like the Automotive OEMS and others need to have a potential 'threat to do better real fast' to keep things from gettin' out of hand in the 'oil patch'..... and lookie here , its perhaps on its way (the "threat') . The key is to be able to 'bust' their forecast and plans , which in a sense , is exactly what happens going the other way .

BTW , all it takes (short term) is the right combination of 'conventional' 'just enough' improvement AND 'low enough' prices (high enough relative supply) and 'other' stuff will once again get back burnered or worse .

The key triangle for certain discussions like this always must include 'the street' and banks - and how 'they (different groups) want to try and play it' . As you said , 'the future is going to be interesting' - more ways than one .

Did your conference have anything on how to utilize (efficiently) the oxygen out of a solar/water hydrogen generation package ?

Speaking of interesting , the last ten years has been a great time to be able to read Russian in technical journals .

 

[crw]

It was the Design Automation Conference, which usually deals with semiconductor design, but this year it had an automotive theme as a backdrop.

What I mean by interesting was another display there, a car built by Wrightspeed, all electric, which basically outperforms any conventional car out there. It will out accelerate all but the Bugatti Veyron. All while getting the equivalent of 170 mpg. There is a niche market out there for high performance electrics. You can build a car in your garage that will beat a Ferrari. What's holding it back from general use? The lithium ion batteries are very expensive. But things could change. This is interesting.

The GM Sequel was there. Holds great promise if we can find a way to produce hydrogen. Holds no promise if we don't.

Ethanol... geez, ethanol is really old news. In 1984 I was riding in an old VW bug that ran on 100% alcohol. This was in Brazil. They've had 100% ethanol available at their service stations for the past 30 years. It would be available here if our government didn't impose tarrifs on it's importation. Ethanol from corn might not make sense, but ethanol from sugarcane makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately our congress has sold out the country for the votes of the farmers and ADM. But, switchgrass might change the picture.

My alma mater, Utah State University is hot on the trail of making crude oil from algae. Sounds far-fetched, but they say we can meet the world's demand for energy within the southwest USA, with individual farmers creating crude oil from pond scum.

There is much more, but I'm of the belief that once the system has a chance to work, and refining capacity catches up to demand (and if we find relative peace in the middle-east (ha ha)) then the price of a gallon of the good old stuff will drop back to under two dollars a gallon and the drive to invent will be left behind.

 

[g20ooh]

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Newsflash: excessive use of the emoticon reveals one thing: inability to marhshall real facts or logic to support your position.

Is this where we do the 'Ad Homin' attack thing ? (Goodness , I'm beginning to feel like Charlene Blake - and this is just about "hybrid" vs. diesel .)

---

Nope. Ad hominem refers to arguments that attack the opponent, rather than his message. I pointed out that your use of the subject foolish emoticon reveals that you are replacing meaningful substance (which your arguments lack), with empty laughter. I'm not attacking you (ad hominem), I'm going after what you have to say, because much of it's incorrect. Your reliance on silly emoticons only makes it easier for me to make my point.

BTW, for the last three weeks, I've been averaging almost 52 mpg (75% city) on cheaper-than-diesel 87 octane. How'd you do???

---

Ekpolk , I just reread this thread , and see that on one of my posts I got your handle wrong , my apologies for that .

Second , if you don't mind me building on the fifth level of off topic discussion here , I would like to say the above quote still makes me laugh (in a good way) and although horribly inaccurate in parts , well off topic in all ways , and at my expense , its very funny and very well done - ' Now thats the spirit! ' comes to mind !!

I had a pleasant surprise for Father's Day ; I'm going on a surprise vacation starting tomorrow - destination unknown ( Don't get your hopes up - No Gitmo) so of the 20-25 'discussion points' that could be 'discussed' here , all but one will have to wait and even that one has to be short .

Now , I gotta have a little fun with it ...so here goes .



EP ,
Does your prius have some unusual rattles ? See the reason I ask is if you have a 40 lbs. battery pack .... shaped like a suitcase ..... - well , at the very least something is seriously amiss or rather missing from your prius battery pack -maybe some modules got loose somehow .... here are some of the correct specs for prius batteries/powertrain .





Prius Generations: (MY)

Original 1998-2001 (JDM ONLY)
Classic 2002 - 2003
HSD 2004 - PRESENT


Engine HP 58 70 76
Engine kW...43 52 57
Engine RPM Redline 4000 4500 5000

Motor HP 40 44 67
Motor kW 30 33 50
Motor Torque 225 258 295

0-60 MPH (seconds)14.1 12.5 10.1 - 10.9

Tire Width 165 175 185
Tire Diameter 15 14 15

Battery-Pack Energy (W/kg) 600 900 1250

Battery-Pack Voltage 288 273.6 201.6
Battery-Pack Weight (lbs) 125lbs 110lbs. 99lbs.
Battery-Pack Section Type D cell module module
Battery-Pack Section Count 40 38 28

Hybrid-System Voltage 288 273.6 500


Now , it is true you represented your own car's extra battery about 40% correctly - which to give credit where credit is due , is unusually 'accurate' in the world of toyota 'marketing' ....including MPG ....well , really everything about HSG and the vehicles so equiped ....esp complexity ....

Of course , these are the smallest and lightest batteries ever used in toyotas different hybrid systems and you somehow missed the etc in my earlier post .
As you (I hope ?) know we still have all the other system weight penalty to account for - there are the even heavier , bigger , and even more complex HSG systems in the other platforms along with their much , much heavier batteries - so yep, any HSG equiped vehicle drags around at all times a very significantly heavier powertrain - which even can , in the right duty cycle, is a break even -loser proposition considering MPG .

EP , there is more , alot more , you know ,ICE engines w/o crankshaft seals , special sevice campaigns on batteries etc to consider , but in light of all the bad news at toyota this week and last , the great news everywhere else , well , I just don't like piling on .

I mean really its gotta be tough if you are a toyota 'fan' , - that 30 person shake up at Corp.( first time toyotas done that , - that I can recall -'looks' sales target related ( sales performance overall has been excellent) or worse , the announced non-delay delay concerning the next generation prius which will be (hopefully) coming in 2009 but will not have the Lithium ion battery or plug in capability , the we 'may' have a big diesel in 2010 and the other news about ... well , like I said - no piling on - I'll leave the other 10 -12 items out including the two hybrid add series (two products prius and Rx400h ???) that the UK goverment had pulled for being false and misleading concerning emission benefits .


I do want to recognise the continiuing sales success the prius is having - all those fleet sales are certainly going to help the 'numbers' including the 3400 that Hertz is buying .Whew , can you imagine how that would make a knowledgeable industry insider feel who bought the month before ?

Well , it is about fuel economy , so I'm sure we're all better off if the prius takes up at least some of the slack in the rental fleets now that the old Taurus has been laid to rest .

EP , enjoy , and enjoy the time while I'm gone .

 

[g20ooh]

Like that tag , trouble is nobody can use their inaccurate gauge correctly - when they remember . It also appears tire balancing is becoming a lost art form as well .

 

[ekpolk]

Sources, please. I question whether the battery is actually that heavy. If it actually weighs 100 lbs, so what? That's still only the approximate weight of 14 gallons of fuel. So a Prius with a full tank of gas (just under 12 gallons) and a battery, compared to a Camry with a full tank (or other car with 18-20 gallons of gas), actually suffers a comparative weight penalty of well under 50 pounds. Big deal there.

As far as the look is concerned, I used the suitcase analogy to express the general shape and proportions. No, it's not a twin to any American Tourister model I've ever seen. It's a dull-shiny metal case. Here is one in a Gen-2 Prius, with all the interior panels, and back seat, taken out. View is from left rear door area:

Road and Track tested the current generation Prius in May of 2006, and that test showed 0-60 in 9.7 seconds (data still in the table at p. 145 of the May 2007 R&T). Where'd you get your (suspect) performance facts?

Quote:

---

EP , there is more , alot more , you know ,ICE engines w/o crankshaft seals , special sevice campaigns on batteries etc to consider , but in light of all the bad news at toyota this week and last , the great news everywhere else , well , I just don't like piling on.

---

Sure, you just let me know when Toyota finds itself on the brink. Surpassing GM in total car sales -- hmmm, that would be another sure sign that collapse is right around the corner for bad ole' Toyota.

You keep harping on the complexity of these cars, without ever acknowledging where they are actually far simpler than conventional cars. The bottom line: they add a battery and a pair of inverters that go with the two motor-generators. The two inverters are cooled, but you incorrectly claim the car has three cooling systems. It has two, one takes care of both inverter cooling circuits. By your logic, any V-6 or V-8 has two cooling systems.

But the car has a transmission that's far simpler mechanically than any multi-speed auto. And as I said, no starter with its associated hardware, no alternator (and no associated belt system). Belt-free, ultra-simple electric power steering. And so on. Yet you fail to acknowledge any of this. Your axe grinds loudly. . .

 

[oilyriser]

Quote:

---

There is much more, but I'm of the belief that once the system has a chance to work, and refining capacity catches up to demand (and if we find relative peace in the middle-east (ha ha)) then the price of a gallon of the good old stuff will drop back to under two dollars a gallon and the drive to invent will be left behind.

---

oil industry scales back refinery expansion plans

 

[g20ooh]

Quote:

---

Sources, please. I question whether the battery is actually that heavy If it actually weighs 100 lbs, so what?

Quote:

---

( So you were inaccurately boasting of its light weight ,making it out to be almost 2 and 1/2 times lighter than it really is , and , therefore , all your commentary after was incorrect as well .

EP , I'm just going to guess here , but I THINK you maybe mixing up kilograms and pounds ,and rounding inaccurately , hence your large error . We can deal with the the rest of the faulty , incomplete , and therefore misleading HSG weight penality analysis ,the biggest of which is omission , a little later . Going to be lots of fun esp. with the other systems .)





Here is one in a Gen-2 Prius, with all the interior panels, and back seat, taken out.( You may want to see if you are 'missing' something , this description is incomplete ) View is from left rear door area:

You keep harping on the complexity of these cars,( EP , trust me , havn't even scratched the surface and have no intention of covering the whole topic - even in its own thread where this kind of distracting sideshow belongs - its too long and complex to post about - even for me )

and without ever acknowledging where they are actually far simpler than conventional cars. ( Thats because nowhere is that true in a full and accurate analysis except in a "partial examination of the transmission" - and you guys have overstated the he** out of that anyway , - while ignoring where it is not .)


The bottom line: they add a battery and a pair of inverters that go with the two motor-generators. The two inverters are cooled, but you incorrectly claim the car has three cooling systems. It has two, one takes care of both inverter cooling circuits. By your logic, any V-6 or V-8 has two cooling systems. {b] Are you trying to equate a heatercore to that complex inverter cooling system ? )

---

Not even close - shame on you . Double dog dare you to even post just three lines per computer ie 16x3 covering area of function . Then there is the additional cost,weight,and complexity of all the other HSG SYSTEMS .....

This is just more of the gross oversimplification and pitter they use to try and sell the car in the showroom and to the media .
/
/
/

Quote:

---

( Good of you to put this picture up

- it quite clearly shows part of cooling system # 3 - which of course , due to the complexity of its task has its own computer .

I am referring to all the ducting - and most esp. the large , black , air duct visible on the left hand side which draws its air from the cabin parcel shelf area , with its own fan , and in hot climates is counting on the A/C functioning in the cabin . This cooling system , sometimes incompletely labeled strictly by its simultanous other function - ventillation , uses air as opposed to liquid ( - which is used for systems #1 and 2 ) is just as critical as the other two to in regards to being able to start , operate , and utilise the battery as intended , so , also effects power and fuel economy , and of course , durability and reliability .

toyota trys real hard here to avoid battery temps. above 140 degrees fahrenheit - when all sorts of bad things can and will , start to happen .

This is interesting , given measured cab and trunk temps in Arizona during summer .

It takes over 12 pages to accurately describe and charactorize this cooling/ventilation system and its function - that battery "PACK/installation" is made noticeably more complex because of it .

Speaking of that battery/battery pack , Is it true , that the initial price was 8,000$ USA , which was then later reduced to 5,000 $ , once that 8,000$ price was discovered by some of the press ?
Nickel , a key element in the construction of this battery is now up over 300% since 2004 . Do you think prius battery prices are likely to go up or down - esp. when a cust. pay is involved ?)

Since most of this is covered in the owners manual on later priuses anyway , I'll support this information and help you stay safe by these little nuggets of accurate information concerning your vehicles cooling system # 3 .




" - Because the main battery pack must not be exposed to extreme heat, the a/c must work. This is not an option. The Prius has its own battery compartment ventilation < cooling > system, with a rear fender-mounted vent and an air intake on the rear filler panel. -"


" - It's imperative that the rear filler panel intake be unobstructed at all times. - "


" - The penalty for obstruction may range as high as $5000 for a new battery pack. - "




Hope that helps , and , as always , have a very special day .

ON TOPIC :


P.S. You really should not have gone after UBS-RICARDO here like you did . Although it contradicts toyotas postion mightily - its actually friendlier to that than most .



Hope your sitting down for this one , an earlier JD POWER FORECAST REPORT - which they are very good at , has hybrids as a passing fad that will peak in 2010 at only approx. 3.3% of sales - and then declining after 2012ish .

I think if you meld the two reports together you get a better result than separately .

Both implicitly assume rational world events and and behaivor in this regard and necc. normal oil pricing - not enough allowance for disruptions that are likely .
Depending if those kinds of things happen , and how , all forecasts on this will be more than a little off - and in some situations will favor , at least temporarily anything on hand that works .
Then again , that might not matter .

 

[ekpolk]

Look, enough of this. At this point, you're shoveling so much false information that it's becoming ridiculous. Posting false information here simply doesn't cut it.

You posted this:

Quote:

---

Since most of this is covered in the owners manual on later priuses anyway , I'll support this information and help you stay safe by these little nuggets of accurate information concerning your vehicles cooling system # 3 .




" - Because the main battery pack must not be exposed to extreme heat, the a/c must work. This is not an option. The Prius has its own battery compartment ventilation < cooling > system, with a rear fender-mounted vent and an air intake on the rear filler panel. -"


" - It's imperative that the rear filler panel intake be unobstructed at all times. - "


" - The penalty for obstruction may range as high as $5000 for a new battery pack. - "

---

In fact, none of this appears in any Prius owner's manual. And it doesn't appear in any of the documents on TIS (the on-line service manual site).

Once again, you're just making stuff up, apparently.

The truth: yes, the battery needs cooling, and performes better when it is. What the owner's manual actually says is, "An air vent is provided on the side of the rear right seatback to cool the hybrid vehicle battery. If this vent is covered, the hybrid vehicle battery will overheat resulting in a reduction of the output performance of the hybrid system." It's not 12 pages, and it's not a matter of the thing going critical and melting at the drop of a hat. I did it once by accident early in my car's life, got a temp warning, and felt the car go into a sluggish "self protect" mode. Two-three minutes after I moved the obstruction, all was well, and I've never had another hint of a problem.

You also fail to credit Toyota for the clever "dual use" of the AC air. The car cools it once for the people inside, then "re-uses" it for battery cooling. Quite an elegant and efficient solution, IMO.

As for the rest of this silliness, OK, it's a vent, a duct, and a fan -- allrighty, we can call that a cooling system too. Hey, a chihuahua and a timber wolf are both "canines" but I'd hardly try to call them the same thing. Likewise, I wouldn't equate a complex liquid cooling system with this little bit of ductwork.

And maybe you should sit down for this one: Toyota has now sold over one million hybrid vehicles, world-wide over the last decade or so. Maybe they will go away, maybe they won't. So, why are you so desperate to see them go away??? You never have gotten around to explaining your bias in all this.

But back to the important point. BITOG is about legitimate, fact-based disucssion of issues that belong here. I'm tired of reading your fiction, so I'm going to lock this one down. If you continue posting fiction, I'll lock you down. To be perfectly clear, I don't mind anyone disagreeing with me, and I don't mind being proven wrong, if that is the truth. But making up non-existent "quotes", and attributing them to an owner's manual in which they don't appear -- that's way across the line, and won't be permitted here.