Rev Matching and Shifting - Mazda 6

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Originally Posted By: IndyIan
How long is a blip? Maybe change your technique a bit and use less throttle but for longer to hit your desired rpm. My Focus does have a cable but for street driving I rev it up and down using small throttle openings, and that gives the synchros time to do their thing as well. Blipping to me means track driving where you are getting your shifts in before the corner while braking, so you don't have time to rev match perfectly.
That said, my SIL test drove a newer Mazda3 on an autocross course and slow throttle response was her biggest complaint, so maybe Mazda is bad for this now? Never hear about it in the car rags though?


I think you are right on target here. Fast on and off seems to yield little to no throttle response, even if the pedal goes all the way to floor. Slow pedal engagement yields more response, though it still sometimes take a while. It might take 0.5-1 sec before there is any throttle response, which is, I think, one of the things that throws me off. With a mechanically connected pedal, you get the response you expect and modulating is very intuitive. With this, I press the pedal and have to wait for a response to come. It never seems to be quite what I expect, and modulating it feels weird because their is not a linear or continuous response to your pedal motion (I might have pressed the pedal for some time before there is any response from the engine, so when it does start, it seems like it starting from a weird place in the pedal pressing sequence. It's hard to explain, I hope that makes sense.)

I'm typically not driving in *track mode* just more day-to-day commute type stuff, with the occasional hammer down (to the extent that this car has one, LOL) for fun highway entries or a little spirited fun if I am on roads that beg for it, so it's not a big deal. It's just the one aspect of the car that I haven't quite adjusted to yet. It still feels weird to me to have controls that, in some circumstances, don't respond at all to driver input. I guess my brain and body are still in analog mode but the car is digital, LOL!
 
Originally Posted By: SeaJay
These ain't grandpappy's manual clutch, throttle and tranny!

LOL! You can say that again!
 
Originally Posted By: dparm
Originally Posted By: Alex_V
Drive-by-wire throttle - the computer sees no need to obey your foot when the clutch is disengaged, and only does it as much as its emissions-dictated programming sees fit when it's in gear.


It's likely this. There's nothing inherently preventing DBW from responding as fast as you press the pedal, but the software could be tuned to smooth that out and prevent a jerky feeling if you press too hard and too fast.

If the car has different driving modes (eco, sport, etc), try the "sport" mode and see if that does anything. In many cars, the "sport" setting makes the throttle response sharper.

Yeah it's DBW throttle lag. Honda dealt with this in the mid-late 2000s and has mostly cleaned it up. Things like are why I do not regret not having a manual anymore in my DD; the ZF 8AT in my BMW is truly a brilliant trans. I still love manuals, like my S2000, but if they're going to be made to feel synthetic I'd rather have a smarter and quicker AT, as several are nowadays.
 
Here's a short video I just shot to try and show the throttle response:
https://vid.me/ZxwVT

Not normal driving, the throttle motion is exaggerated to try and show it better. One thing I noticed in shooting the video is that the first "blip" of the throttle after engaging the clutch did get more response than subsequent "blips." When I am driving normally, that doesn't always seem to be the case. Also, watching the video, everything seems faster. My perception when driving is that everything is happening more slowly. Maybe I'm just impatient?! :)

Anyway, don't want to beat a dead horse. I just thought it was interesting and was curious if others did clutch-only downshifts on drive-by-wire cars, or rev matching. This is the first drive-by-wire MANUAL TRANSMISSION vehicle I've owned, and I guess I expected it to be more "manual", LOL! Thanks for all the comments.
 
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Originally Posted By: 2016Accord
Maybe I'm just impatient?!


Yes, I think this is the answer.

You're driving a 4 door family sedan, not the Porsche Cayman in my signature.

But, at the same time, you're right.
You should have a better response to a throttle stab than what you are getting.

I think this might be one of those few times when a Sprint pedal booster might be in your best interests.
They don't make one for the current Mazda 6 generation, but they do make them for the CX-5, so that most likely will work for you.

BC.
 
Yeah newer cars are weird. My Challenger has hill hold, but in sport mode the throttle is as responsive as it possibly can be IMO. I never felt the need to rev match with a synchro tranny. Maybe I'm just lazy, but I drive truck for a living and want my job easy on my own time.
 
Originally Posted By: 2016Accord
Here's a short video I just shot to try and show the throttle response:
https://vid.me/ZxwVT

Not normal driving, the throttle motion is exaggerated to try and show it better. One thing I noticed in shooting the video is that the first "blip" of the throttle after engaging the clutch did get more response than subsequent "blips." When I am driving normally, that doesn't always seem to be the case. Also, watching the video, everything seems faster. My perception when driving is that everything is happening more slowly. Maybe I'm just impatient?! :)

Anyway, don't want to beat a dead horse. I just thought it was interesting and was curious if others did clutch-only downshifts on drive-by-wire cars, or rev matching. This is the first drive-by-wire MANUAL TRANSMISSION vehicle I've owned, and I guess I expected it to be more "manual", LOL! Thanks for all the comments.

Another difference between the responsive 1.8L in a 1994 Protege and your car is the dual mass flywheel which are heavy compared to a regular flywheel for these 4 bangers.
Also I bet the response is better at 2-3k rpm than 1k rpm. You shouldn't let the car drop to idle anyways on a down shift, the revs should only go up to the next gear ratio. I wouldn't be surprised if Mazda programs in a sport mode as well when you are getting on it using higher rpms and throttle openings. Maybe do another video, where you're doing WO 3rd gear pulls on the freeway, then coming onto an off ramp at speed and do some downshifts where your keeping the revs in the 4-5k range. I'd think it would respond pretty well then.
 
My BMW is actually really bad for this. It is all about the software programming. If I step on the clutch, there is almost zero accelerator response. I have to floor the gas pedal to rev match. Hopefully the Dinan tune for my car will help.
 
Originally Posted By: gofast182
I still love manuals, like my S2000, but if they're going to be made to feel synthetic I'd rather have a smarter and quicker AT, as several are nowadays.


I agree. I love manuals, but many of the modern manuals I have driven feel so artificial. They try to numb them down and make them "easier" to drive yet I find instead I'm fighting all of the artificial stuff. The BMWs have a clutch delay valve in their manual trans cars. It is supposed to make clutch engagement smoother, but instead just makes them kind of funky to drive. I wonder if this is less of an issue for people who have never driven older manual cars?

Not to mention the EPA garbage in some cars like the gear lockout in the Dodge muscle cars. It locks you from shifting from 1st directly to 2nd and instead pushes you to 3rd gear for economy reasons. The car will only let you shift to 2nd when under heavy throttle. It can be disabled with aftermarket stuff, but it is a huge turnoff to me considering the benefit of choosing a manual is because you can pick your own gears!
 
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
The BMWs have a clutch delay valve in their manual trans cars. It is supposed to make clutch engagement smoother, but instead just makes them kind of funky to drive. I wonder if this is less of an issue for people who have never driven older manual cars?


Luckily, the CDV is a 10 minute job to remove.
 
Originally Posted By: 2016Accord
Here's a short video I just shot to try and show the throttle response:
https://vid.me/ZxwVT

Not normal driving, the throttle motion is exaggerated to try and show it better. One thing I noticed in shooting the video is that the first "blip" of the throttle after engaging the clutch did get more response than subsequent "blips." When I am driving normally, that doesn't always seem to be the case. Also, watching the video, everything seems faster. My perception when driving is that everything is happening more slowly. Maybe I'm just impatient?! :)

Anyway, don't want to beat a dead horse. I just thought it was interesting and was curious if others did clutch-only downshifts on drive-by-wire cars, or rev matching. This is the first drive-by-wire MANUAL TRANSMISSION vehicle I've owned, and I guess I expected it to be more "manual", LOL! Thanks for all the comments.



crazy2.gif
what in the blue moon...?!?! Dude, that is NOT normal throttle response AT ALL. My 2014 Mazda 3 with 2.0L will be bouncing off redline if I jabbed the throttle to the floor like you did in the video, yet yours barely rose above 1,000rpm.

That is either a massive software issue or there's a problem with your particular car. Have you tried driving another one for comparison?

I'm on the road right now (I'm a truck driver) but I'll be back home on Friday and can take a quick video showing how the throttle response SHOULD BE (granted there may be small differences between the 2.0L and 2.5L in your Mazda 6 but not to that extent.

I vote that there's something seriously wrong with your car. I call that ZERO throttle response.
 
Is it possible to induce abuse protection by constantly flapping the pedal really fast? Sort of related, I saw a test drive where a guy was cruising in D and kept stabbing the pedal to induce a downshift for the camera and he did it 5 or 6 times until the computer stopped downshifting and just held a higher gear even though the pedal was ranging fast from 0-100%.

I've never liked the response of any of the DBWs I've driven. Sometimes you stab the pedal and the RPMs just lazily slink upwards to a soft rev limit at ~4000. Some GMs will rev up nice but hit a wall at 4K when not in gear. I bet they program them to be lame like this for HC emissions compliance and thus should be able to be defeated with programming.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Yeah, that looks pretty bad. If this is normal, then shame on Mazda.


Unless Mazda literally KILLED the drivebility of the Mazda 6, I say it's broken. My 2014 responds like an sport bike. INSTANT throttle response and accuracy. I can do it blind by ear perfectly and downshift from 6th gear to 3rd smoother then an auto and faster.
 
Originally Posted By: PeterPolyol
Is it possible to induce abuse protection by constantly flapping the pedal really fast? Sort of related, I saw a test drive where a guy was cruising in D and kept stabbing the pedal to induce a downshift for the camera and he did it 5 or 6 times until the computer stopped downshifting and just held a higher gear even though the pedal was ranging fast from 0-100%.

I've never liked the response of any of the DBWs I've driven. Sometimes you stab the pedal and the RPMs just lazily slink upwards to a soft rev limit at ~4000. Some GMs will rev up nice but hit a wall at 4K when not in gear. I bet they program them to be lame like this for HC emissions compliance and thus should be able to be defeated with programming.


Maybe there is some protection but that would be weird if say it's an emergency situation and the computer decides to block power for unknown reasons just because you punched the gas pedal a month of times really quickly. Hahaha.

My Mazda has a lower rev limit if you aren't moving. I'm sure they just simply don't want people revving the engine to redline.
I'm sure it's an emission thing most likely.
 
Looking at the video, some throttle inputs were better matched than others. Perhaps stabbing it like that, all the way to the floor is a mistake and triggers some sort of protection algorithm.

How does it respond to normal blips, say 25%-30%? Which in reality is all that should be needed for a quick throttle blip.
 
Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Also I bet the response is better at 2-3k rpm than 1k rpm. You shouldn't let the car drop to idle anyways on a down shift, the revs should only go up to the next gear ratio. I wouldn't be surprised if Mazda programs in a sport mode as well when you are getting on it using higher rpms and throttle openings. Maybe do another video, where you're doing WO 3rd gear pulls on the freeway, then coming onto an off ramp at speed and do some downshifts where your keeping the revs in the 4-5k range. I'd think it would respond pretty well then.


You are correct. I didn't have a camera with me yesterday, but I tested it again, and this appears to be true. If I don't let the revs drop, I get good throttle response. For example cruising on the highway, then downshifting to accelerate, works well if I keep the RPMs up. It seems to be when they drop too low that I get the sluggish throttle response, as when I downshift to decelerate, but don't heel-toe (which I suck at) to keep the revs up.

Also, it appears that the programming only wants to give one chance at revs once the clutch is engaged. I think that was what I was seeing when I shot the video and did the multiple, exaggerated throttle stabs. I think the lack of response that was so obvious in the video was the programming "ignoring" multiple throttle inputs after a single clutch engagement. I guess I understand that, but it still feels so weird to have the car ignore driver inputs!
 
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Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Looking at the video, some throttle inputs were better matched than others. Perhaps stabbing it like that, all the way to the floor is a mistake and triggers some sort of protection algorithm.

How does it respond to normal blips, say 25%-30%? Which in reality is all that should be needed for a quick throttle blip.


Lots of good thoughts from you guys. I am not going to reply to each individually, I'll try to sum up my thoughts here in a single post:

I think the throttle stabbing did in fact trigger some sort of protection programming. At the time that I did it, I didn't think about that and it just seemed to reinforce my thinking that the throttle response was wonky. In testing it more, it seems that the programming ignores or suppresses the response to multiple throttle presses with a single clutch engagement. I didn't expect that, so that behavior really freaked me out.

I do still find that the initial throttle response is less than I would expect, especially if I have allowed RPMs to drop when the clutch is engaged. I'll have to drive it some more to see if I can tell what exactly might trigger this - a set RPM threshold, a set amount RPM drop, or something else.

As for the question as to how it responds to "normal blips, say 25%-30%" - I'd say the two factors above seem to be the main determinants, though slow and steady throttle application gets a better throttle response than fast on, fast off "blips". It's like there is some processing time or lag. I'll have to test it again with this in mind, but I think it is more the rate of throttle application than the amount of throttle, but I could be wrong.

When I am downshifting to accelerate and I keep the RPMs up, it isn't an issue.
When I am downshifting to decelerate, I see it most. I can't heel-toe worth a [censored] and I usually let the RPMS drop and that's usually where I get the wonky throttle response.

I'll probably run it by the dealer soon, and let them take it for a spin just to see what they say. I haven't driven another one, so I have nothing to compare it to.
 
Well that's good to hear, Mazda wouldn't make the car totally unresponsive. Now work on your heel and toe downshifts, it makes urban driving much more fun.
 
Originally Posted By: Bladecutter

I think this might be one of those few times when a Sprint pedal booster might be in your best interests.
They don't make one for the current Mazda 6 generation, but they do make them for the CX-5, so that most likely will work for you.
BC.


I wasn't really thinking mods, but this YouTube review of the Sprint pedal booster, does make it look interesting for this situation, especially in terms of downshifting:
(Jump forward to about 4:33 in the video to see the part relevant to downshifts)
 
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