Report: Toyota Repairs No Fix for Problems

[jsharp]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: jsharp
I don't claim to know the details and resolution of every last complaint.

Exactly the point. No one does. So, right now, all we have are unhappy customers and a few hunches as to why they are unhappy. That's it.

You say this indicates that there is a problem with DBW throttles in general. I'm saying you can't say that because, as you apparently agree, there is no evidence to that effect.

No one is saying there ISN'T a problem. Just that we can't tell either way.


Originally Posted By: jsharp
What I did post is still a good bit more supportable and rational than making a statement like "No other manufacturer is having a verified, systematic problem like Toyota is. and then backing that opinion up with... well, nothing.

No, it isn't.

Note the use of the word "verified." As you pointed out, none of the cases is verified. Therefore, there is no verified problem.

There is a possible problem. But not a verified one. That's what I'm saying. Again, you seem to agree. So why are you insisting that there is a problem?


Are you reading posts by someone else then replying to me? Or just trying to build an army of strawmen that you want me to knock down.

I never said DBW in general had problems.

Ford did in fact recall some number of Transit vans built in China that use a CTS pedal assembly. That may or may not be a "verifiable problem," in your mind. Obviously Ford was concerned about it enough to to take an action that cost them $$ And Ford isn't known for spending money on recalls unless they're almost forced into it.

 

[jsharp]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: oldmaninsc
Originally Posted By: Len_A


Camry's with trouble prone transmissions (http://www.autoblog.com/2006/04/26/toyota-recalls-new-camry-for-transmission-issue/ - note that the date on this 2006!!)

Toyota Avalon quality issues: http://www.autoblog.com/2006/05


I'd rather see that than some of the manufacturers who refuse to see a problem with their vehicles and then not recall or fix them.



You mean like Toyota has by covering up, lying and delaying their UA recall for the last five years?

You mean like Toyota does by employing former NHTSA employees to get a sweet "sweep it under the rug" deal?

You mean like Toyota does by blaming suppliers parts in an effort to deflect their own liability?

You mean like Toyota does when they refuse to give black box information to investigating authorities?

Carry on with the delusion and obfuscation...."Nothing to see here folks, move along"


He was probably thinking of the 10+ million vehicles GM built with intake manifold gaskets that are roughly 100% destined to leak. The GM fix? Throw a couple of stopleak pellets in the radiator at the factory so it'll make it through the warranty period.

Or maybe the Ford ignition switches and cruise control wiring that starts fires, and that Ford refused to acknowledge and repair until they were forced into it.

If you think Detroit isn't as guilty at the guys as Toyota, I want some of what you're smoking...

 

[oldmaninsc]

Originally Posted By: jsharp
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: oldmaninsc
Originally Posted By: Len_A


Camry's with trouble prone transmissions (http://www.autoblog.com/2006/04/26/toyota-recalls-new-camry-for-transmission-issue/ - note that the date on this 2006!!)

Toyota Avalon quality issues: http://www.autoblog.com/2006/05


I'd rather see that than some of the manufacturers who refuse to see a problem with their vehicles and then not recall or fix them.



You mean like Toyota has by covering up, lying and delaying their UA recall for the last five years?

You mean like Toyota does by employing former NHTSA employees to get a sweet "sweep it under the rug" deal?

You mean like Toyota does by blaming suppliers parts in an effort to deflect their own liability?

You mean like Toyota does when they refuse to give black box information to investigating authorities?

Carry on with the delusion and obfuscation...."Nothing to see here folks, move along"


He was probably thinking of the 10+ million vehicles GM built with intake manifold gaskets that are roughly 100% destined to leak. The GM fix? Throw a couple of stopleak pellets in the radiator at the factory so it'll make it through the warranty period.

Or maybe the Ford ignition switches and cruise control wiring that starts fires, and that Ford refused to acknowledge and repair until they were forced into it.

If you think Detroit isn't as guilty at the guys as Toyota, I want some of what you're smoking...


EXACTLY!

As someone else said in another thread - talk about a modern day witch hunt!
Talk about "delusion and obfuscation"!!!

Obfuscation:

1. to confuse, bewilder, or stupefy.
2. to make obscure or unclear: to obfuscate a problem with extraneous information.
3. to darken.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: jsharp
I never said DBW in general had problems.

In that case, could you clarify what you meant by the following comments?
Originally Posted By: jsharp
Originally Posted By: demarpaint


+3 The problem seems to be limited to Toyota products.


Just think how great a point this would be if it weren't completely false.

Originally Posted By: jsharp
You can decide if their numbers are good enough. If I looked at them I'm be a lot less concerned about Toyota than some other brands.

Originally Posted By: jsharp
Ford did in fact recall some number of Transit vans built in China that use a CTS pedal assembly. That may or may not be a "verifiable problem," in your mind. Obviously Ford was concerned about it enough to to take an action that cost them $$ And Ford isn't known for spending money on recalls unless they're almost forced into it.

First, that recall was entirely precautionary. Ford issued issued it because Toyota's recall raised the possibility of a of a manufacturing defect.

Second, Ford is now vastly more responsible with recalls and quality issues than you are insinuating. Get with the times, as they say.

 

[GeaugaFletcher]

Originally Posted By: Len_A
Toyota's DBW system is the only one on the market that does not have a failsafe, which on DBW systems is a brake pedal activated throttle cutoff.
The current Miata, which is equipped with a DBW throttle, doesn't have that kind of failsafe.

 

[d00df00d]

Even with the automatic?

 

[Kiwi_ME]

My '09 Suzuki doesn't have a brake over-ride either.

 

[Len_A]

Originally Posted By: oldmaninsc
Originally Posted By: Len_A


Camry's with trouble prone transmissions (http://www.autoblog.com/2006/04/26/toyota-recalls-new-camry-for-transmission-issue/ - note that the date on this 2006!!)

Toyota Avalon quality issues: http://www.autoblog.com/2006/05



Did you read the article? They recalled " . . . one half of one percent of the new 2007 Camry sedans it started building this year for a problem with their six-speed automatic transmissions."
So they had a problem with a few transmissions! They recalled them and fixed them. I'd rather see that than some of the manufacturers who refuse to see a problem with their vehicles and then not recall or fix them.
So? The majority of the combination Detroit critics/Toyota fans act like Toyota can do no wrong. Guess what? They've screwed up as bad as any Detroit automaker, and if you bothered to read the other links, they publicly admitted they had a quality problem, and yet on this issue (sudden acceleration), they still obfuscated, obstructed and delayed.

 

[Len_A]

Originally Posted By: jsharp
Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS
Originally Posted By: oldmaninsc
Originally Posted By: Len_A


Camry's with trouble prone transmissions (http://www.autoblog.com/2006/04/26/toyota-recalls-new-camry-for-transmission-issue/ - note that the date on this 2006!!)

Toyota Avalon quality issues: http://www.autoblog.com/2006/05


I'd rather see that than some of the manufacturers who refuse to see a problem with their vehicles and then not recall or fix them.



You mean like Toyota has by covering up, lying and delaying their UA recall for the last five years?

You mean like Toyota does by employing former NHTSA employees to get a sweet "sweep it under the rug" deal?

You mean like Toyota does by blaming suppliers parts in an effort to deflect their own liability?

You mean like Toyota does when they refuse to give black box information to investigating authorities?

Carry on with the delusion and obfuscation...."Nothing to see here folks, move along"


He was probably thinking of the 10+ million vehicles GM built with intake manifold gaskets that are roughly 100% destined to leak. The GM fix? Throw a couple of stopleak pellets in the radiator at the factory so it'll make it through the warranty period.

Or maybe the Ford ignition switches and cruise control wiring that starts fires, and that Ford refused to acknowledge and repair until they were forced into it.

If you think Detroit isn't as guilty at the guys as Toyota, I want some of what you're smoking...
Didn't say that, did I? It's the attitude of the diehard Toyota fans that Toyota can do no wrong, when in fact, they've had a string of quality problems, one after another.

 

[oldmaninsc]

Originally Posted By: Len_A
Didn't say that, did I? It's the attitude of the diehard Toyota fans that Toyota can do no wrong, when in fact, they've had a string of quality problems, one after another.


I don't consider myself a Toyota fan so I could hardly be considered a "diehard" (SIC) fan. I myself could care less if Toyota sinks or swims. My wife bought the Camry - I was just there to sign the papers and write the check.
Frankly I haven't seen anyone here say "Toyota can do no wrong". I like to keep the facts honest and not fall for the "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts" mentality.

But the "Buy American" crowd and the news media seems to take great delight in knocking down the new No. 1 automaker. Sounds like sour grapes to me.
No automaker is perfect now, ever was or ever will be.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: oldmaninsc
Frankly I haven't seen anyone here say "Toyota can do no wrong". I like to keep the facts honest and not fall for the "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts" mentality.

I was just thinking about how funny it is that every time someone accuses someone else of being a blind follower of Toyota, that accusation is often followed by something like "I will never buy an import no matter what"...

 

[GMBoy]

Let's face it guys. Every body has their turn in the barrel. When GM (or Ford) is in it all the import guys are happy. Now that Toyota is in the barrel, the domestic guys are happy. It's natural and just a human trait. So be it. The Domestic guys finally got their turn. What comes around goes around so enjoy it while we can.

 

[Len_A]

Originally Posted By: oldmaninsc
Originally Posted By: Len_A
Didn't say that, did I? It's the attitude of the diehard Toyota fans that Toyota can do no wrong, when in fact, they've had a string of quality problems, one after another.


I don't consider myself a Toyota fan so I could hardly be considered a "diehard" (SIC) fan. I myself could care less if Toyota sinks or swims. My wife bought the Camry - I was just there to sign the papers and write the check.
Frankly I haven't seen anyone here say "Toyota can do no wrong". I like to keep the facts honest and not fall for the "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts" mentality.

But the "Buy American" crowd and the news media seems to take great delight in knocking down the new No. 1 automaker. Sounds like sour grapes to me.
No automaker is perfect now, ever was or ever will be.
Actually, on a world wide basis, Toyota didn't stay number 1 for long - it was VW last year.

The "My mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts" mentality may not be seen here, but there's plenty of places else where on the Internet where the anti-Detroit-pro-Toyota-crowd has EXACTLY that mentality. I'll tell you one site right now - The Wall Street Journal - wsj.com. The pro-Toyota crowd vehemently hates the Detroit automakers, GM & Chrysler in particular, and they don't want to hear any report of Toyota quality problems.

That said, calling criticism of Toyota "sour grapes" is nonsense. Toyota's quality has been touted for so long, by some as being an absolute fact, that their problems coming to the surface now is such a contrast, it's hard not to be news.

 

[Len_A]

Originally Posted By: GMBoy
Let's face it guys. Every body has their turn in the barrel. When GM (or Ford) is in it all the import guys are happy. Now that Toyota is in the barrel, the domestic guys are happy. It's natural and just a human trait. So be it. The Domestic guys finally got their turn. What comes around goes around so enjoy it while we can.
Darn right. Well said.

 

[Art_Vandelay]

Originally Posted By: Len_A
calling criticism of Toyota "sour grapes" is nonsense.


I'd say it's more delusional than nonsensical.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
Originally Posted By: Len_A
calling criticism of Toyota "sour grapes" is nonsense.


I'd say it's more delusional than nonsensical.

Depends on the criticism IMO.

If it's well thought out and based on real evidence, then it's entirely legitimate.

If it's the stuff people have been spewing on BITOG of late, it's definitely delusional/nonsensical.

 

[LS2JSTS]

I don't think it's delusional at all to point out what amounts to possible corporate criminal activity. In essence, the numbers argument and all the hoopla surrounding UA at this point is a secondary issue. The real issue to me is, was there a cover-up mentality at Toyota that valued dollars over lives. At this point it appears that is exactly what Toyota has been doing.

What is delusional is when a poster points out the percentage of cars involved here and labels that as miniscule and thus assumes the problem is similarly small in size. All I'll say is the Toyota lawyers better come up with a better defense than, "Hey the other guys have UA too....see".

 

[Art_Vandelay]

Originally Posted By: LS2JSTS

I don't think it's delusional at all to point out what amounts to possible corporate criminal activity. In essence, the numbers argument and all the hoopla surrounding UA at this point is a secondary issue. The real issue to me is, was there a cover-up mentality at Toyota that valued dollars over lives. At this point it appears that is exactly what Toyota has been doing.

What is delusional is when a poster points out the percentage of cars involved here and labels that as miniscule and thus assumes the problem is similarly small in size. All I'll say is the Toyota lawyers better come up with a better defense than, "Hey the other guys have UA too....see".


I think you misread the intent. I'm arguing the same side as you. Not the other way around.

 

[Art_Vandelay]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
Originally Posted By: Len_A
calling criticism of Toyota "sour grapes" is nonsense.


I'd say it's more delusional than nonsensical.

Depends on the criticism IMO.

If it's well thought out and based on real evidence, then it's entirely legitimate.

If it's the stuff people have been spewing on BITOG of late, it's definitely delusional/nonsensical.


Of course it's meant within the context of BITOG. Defending Toyota because you love your Toyota is delusional. So is slamming them just because you love American cars.

Neither side has as its primary concern the threat to the public. Rather they are each only interested in making themselves out to be right.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Art_Vandelay
Of course it's meant within the context of BITOG. Defending Toyota because you love your Toyota is delusional. So is slamming them just because you love American cars.

Neither side has as its primary concern the threat to the public. Rather they are each only interested in making themselves out to be right.

Thank you. Good lord, finally someone talking some sense.