Report: Toyota Repairs No Fix for Problems
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Kestas
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I went on the NHTSA web site, and they say if there are any problems that need to be reported, to first contact the dealer. I think at this point, NHTSA should invite people to submit their vehicles so NHTSA would have first crack at a field investigation of a suspect vehicle. Toyota seems to try to sweep each problem under the rug.
Originally Posted By: Kestas
Toyota seems to try to sweep each problem under the rug.
+1
Looks like the rug is finally out for a good overdue cleaning.
Toyota seems to try to sweep each problem under the rug.
+1
Looks like the rug is finally out for a good overdue cleaning.
I'm really thinking Toyota is overlooking the wiring between the throttle pedal and ECM, as well as the RTOS code running on it.
I'm also thinking the throttle pedal zero-point may also be trashed with the shim - which affects how the hall effect sensors operate. And it's not just Toyotas too with UA problems, buses too have laggy electronic throttles - I've been on many a bus when the driver had to keep the throttle pedal pegged just to keep moving and the CEL/CHECK TRANS lights were off and the shift selector indicates the transmission is working fine.
I'm also thinking the throttle pedal zero-point may also be trashed with the shim - which affects how the hall effect sensors operate. And it's not just Toyotas too with UA problems, buses too have laggy electronic throttles - I've been on many a bus when the driver had to keep the throttle pedal pegged just to keep moving and the CEL/CHECK TRANS lights were off and the shift selector indicates the transmission is working fine.
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They self zero on every start up
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
+3 The problem seems to be limited to Toyota products.
Just think how great a point this would be if it weren't completely false.
Refer to the last 2 paragraphs - http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2010/03/toyota_problems_continue.html
+3 The problem seems to be limited to Toyota products.
Just think how great a point this would be if it weren't completely false.
Refer to the last 2 paragraphs - http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2010/03/toyota_problems_continue.html
No other manufacturer is having a verified, systematic problem like Toyota is. The 60% includes ALL non-Toyota cars on the road, which is a lot. No manufacturer comes close to Toyota's number.
Also, those are REPORTS of sudden acceleration. They are not fully investigated and verified cases. They don't even exclude driver error.
Please think things through a little more deeply before you try to club people over the head with your opinion, and try not to be condescending when you are not an authority on the subject.
Also, those are REPORTS of sudden acceleration. They are not fully investigated and verified cases. They don't even exclude driver error.
Please think things through a little more deeply before you try to club people over the head with your opinion, and try not to be condescending when you are not an authority on the subject.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
No other manufacturer is having a verified, systematic problem like Toyota is. The 60% includes ALL non-Toyota cars on the road, which is a lot. No manufacturer comes close to Toyota's number.
Also, those are REPORTS of sudden acceleration. They are not fully investigated and verified cases. They don't even exclude driver error.
Please think things through a little more deeply before you try to club people over the head with your opinion, and try not to be condescending when you are not an authority on the subject.
And yet others here ARE authorities on the problem? I'll keep that in mind.
Especially when they make statements of opinion and try to pass them off as fact, with no support other than the rest of the mob doing the same.
Here's some numbers not just by brand but by model and market share -
http://www.autoobserver.com/2010/02/toyo...ysis-shows.html
http://www.autoobserver.com/2010/02/toyo...ysis-shows.html
You can decide if their numbers are good enough. If I looked at them I'm be a lot less concerned about Toyota than some other brands.
No other manufacturer is having a verified, systematic problem like Toyota is. The 60% includes ALL non-Toyota cars on the road, which is a lot. No manufacturer comes close to Toyota's number.
Also, those are REPORTS of sudden acceleration. They are not fully investigated and verified cases. They don't even exclude driver error.
Please think things through a little more deeply before you try to club people over the head with your opinion, and try not to be condescending when you are not an authority on the subject.
And yet others here ARE authorities on the problem? I'll keep that in mind.
Here's some numbers not just by brand but by model and market share -
http://www.autoobserver.com/2010/02/toyo...ysis-shows.html
http://www.autoobserver.com/2010/02/toyo...ysis-shows.html
You can decide if their numbers are good enough. If I looked at them I'm be a lot less concerned about Toyota than some other brands.
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Well I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not claiming to be an authority on the problem. I'm just claiming to be more critical than you are when looking at the situation; for example, I can tell the difference between an allegation and an actual problem, and I know that a complaint constitutes an allegation. You, on the other hand, are banging on about complaints as if every single one of them is actually a real incident.
Speaking of which, if you're going to lambast people for passing off opinion as fact, you might want to avoid doing that yourself.
Speaking of which, if you're going to lambast people for passing off opinion as fact, you might want to avoid doing that yourself.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
If these faults are indeed because of the DBW system, they will be the first AFAIK. Electronic throttles have been in use for over a decade with no issues like this, and they have all had failsafes specifically designed to prevent problems like Toyota is having.
If Toyota is having problems with their DBW system, they are Toyota problems, not DBW problems.
Exactly on point. Toyota's DBW system is the only one on the market that does not have a failsafe, which on DBW systems is a brake pedal activated throttle cutoff.
If these faults are indeed because of the DBW system, they will be the first AFAIK. Electronic throttles have been in use for over a decade with no issues like this, and they have all had failsafes specifically designed to prevent problems like Toyota is having.
If Toyota is having problems with their DBW system, they are Toyota problems, not DBW problems.
Exactly on point. Toyota's DBW system is the only one on the market that does not have a failsafe, which on DBW systems is a brake pedal activated throttle cutoff.
You know eventually if they cant or don't fix it they WILL be shut down.
Originally Posted By: CROWNVIC4LIFE
Originally Posted By: Kestas
Toyota seems to try to sweep each problem under the rug.
+1
Looks like the rug is finally out for a good overdue cleaning.
Best post all day!
Originally Posted By: Kestas
Toyota seems to try to sweep each problem under the rug.
+1
Looks like the rug is finally out for a good overdue cleaning.
Best post all day!
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- Sep 28, 2002
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- 39,793
Originally Posted By: Len_A
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
If these faults are indeed because of the DBW system, they will be the first AFAIK. Electronic throttles have been in use for over a decade with no issues like this, and they have all had failsafes specifically designed to prevent problems like Toyota is having.
If Toyota is having problems with their DBW system, they are Toyota problems, not DBW problems.
Exactly on point. Toyota's DBW system is the only one on the market that does not have a failsafe, which on DBW systems is a brake pedal activated throttle cutoff.
How many DBW systems have been sold in such mass numbers?
There's always the situation of something like the Chrysler minivan and failed automatics. I really don't think that there were that many failures % wise..but they sold so many of them that every trans shop was filled with them.
..anyway, attaching any fanboy "I told you they were junk" or "I told you they were a good:bad: company" is just silly. Every manufacturer has their winners and losers. BMW had head cracking issues with the 6 cylinder from the Bavaria through the 80's in the 5 series.
That said, you can keep your drive by wire. Add ABS or any of the other stuff that mostly reduces you to the least functional and competent component in the vehicle.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
If these faults are indeed because of the DBW system, they will be the first AFAIK. Electronic throttles have been in use for over a decade with no issues like this, and they have all had failsafes specifically designed to prevent problems like Toyota is having.
If Toyota is having problems with their DBW system, they are Toyota problems, not DBW problems.
Exactly on point. Toyota's DBW system is the only one on the market that does not have a failsafe, which on DBW systems is a brake pedal activated throttle cutoff.
How many DBW systems have been sold in such mass numbers?
There's always the situation of something like the Chrysler minivan and failed automatics. I really don't think that there were that many failures % wise..but they sold so many of them that every trans shop was filled with them.
..anyway, attaching any fanboy "I told you they were junk" or "I told you they were a good:bad: company" is just silly. Every manufacturer has their winners and losers. BMW had head cracking issues with the 6 cylinder from the Bavaria through the 80's in the 5 series.
That said, you can keep your drive by wire. Add ABS or any of the other stuff that mostly reduces you to the least functional and competent component in the vehicle.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: Len_A
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
If these faults are indeed because of the DBW system, they will be the first AFAIK. Electronic throttles have been in use for over a decade with no issues like this, and they have all had failsafes specifically designed to prevent problems like Toyota is having.
If Toyota is having problems with their DBW system, they are Toyota problems, not DBW problems.
Exactly on point. Toyota's DBW system is the only one on the market that does not have a failsafe, which on DBW systems is a brake pedal activated throttle cutoff.
How many DBW systems have been sold in such mass numbers?
There's always the situation of something like the Chrysler minivan and failed automatics. I really don't think that there were that many failures % wise..but they sold so many of them that every trans shop was filled with them.
..anyway, attaching any fanboy "I told you they were junk" or "I told you they were a good:bad: company" is just silly. Every manufacturer has their winners and losers. BMW had head cracking issues with the 6 cylinder from the Bavaria through the 80's in the 5 series.
That said, you can keep your drive by wire. Add ABS or any of the other stuff that mostly reduces you to the least functional and competent component in the vehicle.
Best post all day!
Originally Posted By: Len_A
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
If these faults are indeed because of the DBW system, they will be the first AFAIK. Electronic throttles have been in use for over a decade with no issues like this, and they have all had failsafes specifically designed to prevent problems like Toyota is having.
If Toyota is having problems with their DBW system, they are Toyota problems, not DBW problems.
Exactly on point. Toyota's DBW system is the only one on the market that does not have a failsafe, which on DBW systems is a brake pedal activated throttle cutoff.
How many DBW systems have been sold in such mass numbers?
There's always the situation of something like the Chrysler minivan and failed automatics. I really don't think that there were that many failures % wise..but they sold so many of them that every trans shop was filled with them.
..anyway, attaching any fanboy "I told you they were junk" or "I told you they were a good:bad: company" is just silly. Every manufacturer has their winners and losers. BMW had head cracking issues with the 6 cylinder from the Bavaria through the 80's in the 5 series.
That said, you can keep your drive by wire. Add ABS or any of the other stuff that mostly reduces you to the least functional and competent component in the vehicle.
Best post all day!
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Well I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not claiming to be an authority on the problem. I'm just claiming to be more critical than you are when looking at the situation; for example, I can tell the difference between an allegation and an actual problem, and I know that a complaint constitutes an allegation. You, on the other hand, are banging on about complaints as if every single one of them is actually a real incident.
Speaking of which, if you're going to lambast people for passing off opinion as fact, you might want to avoid doing that yourself.
I posted some links with data that tells us about overall reports versus makes and models. They even give us an idea of how those makes and models compare to one another. I don't claim to know the details and resolution of every last complaint. Do you?
If so, point us to the source. We'd all like to see it.
What I did post is still a good bit more supportable and rational than making a statement like "No other manufacturer is having a verified, systematic problem like Toyota is. and then backing that opinion up with... well, nothing.
Sorry, the data I've seen doesn't support the mass hysteria IMO. If you've got any data that might tell us otherwise why not post it. It would certainly be more useful than making up numbers that attempt to show Toyota is a hundred times worse in this area than others.
Well I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not claiming to be an authority on the problem. I'm just claiming to be more critical than you are when looking at the situation; for example, I can tell the difference between an allegation and an actual problem, and I know that a complaint constitutes an allegation. You, on the other hand, are banging on about complaints as if every single one of them is actually a real incident.
Speaking of which, if you're going to lambast people for passing off opinion as fact, you might want to avoid doing that yourself.
I posted some links with data that tells us about overall reports versus makes and models. They even give us an idea of how those makes and models compare to one another. I don't claim to know the details and resolution of every last complaint. Do you?
If so, point us to the source. We'd all like to see it.
What I did post is still a good bit more supportable and rational than making a statement like "No other manufacturer is having a verified, systematic problem like Toyota is. and then backing that opinion up with... well, nothing.
Sorry, the data I've seen doesn't support the mass hysteria IMO. If you've got any data that might tell us otherwise why not post it. It would certainly be more useful than making up numbers that attempt to show Toyota is a hundred times worse in this area than others.
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Originally Posted By: jsharp
I don't claim to know the details and resolution of every last complaint.
Exactly the point. No one does. So, right now, all we have are unhappy customers and a few hunches as to why they are unhappy. That's it.
You say this indicates that there is a problem with DBW throttles in general. I'm saying you can't say that because, as you apparently agree, there is no evidence to that effect.
No one is saying there ISN'T a problem. Just that we can't tell either way.
Originally Posted By: jsharp
What I did post is still a good bit more supportable and rational than making a statement like "No other manufacturer is having a verified, systematic problem like Toyota is. and then backing that opinion up with... well, nothing.
No, it isn't.
Note the use of the word "verified." As you pointed out, none of the cases is verified. Therefore, there is no verified problem.
There is a possible problem. But not a verified one. That's what I'm saying. Again, you seem to agree. So why are you insisting that there is a problem?
I don't claim to know the details and resolution of every last complaint.
Exactly the point. No one does. So, right now, all we have are unhappy customers and a few hunches as to why they are unhappy. That's it.
You say this indicates that there is a problem with DBW throttles in general. I'm saying you can't say that because, as you apparently agree, there is no evidence to that effect.
No one is saying there ISN'T a problem. Just that we can't tell either way.
Originally Posted By: jsharp
What I did post is still a good bit more supportable and rational than making a statement like "No other manufacturer is having a verified, systematic problem like Toyota is. and then backing that opinion up with... well, nothing.
No, it isn't.
Note the use of the word "verified." As you pointed out, none of the cases is verified. Therefore, there is no verified problem.
There is a possible problem. But not a verified one. That's what I'm saying. Again, you seem to agree. So why are you insisting that there is a problem?
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Originally Posted By: Len_A
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
If these faults are indeed because of the DBW system, they will be the first AFAIK. Electronic throttles have been in use for over a decade with no issues like this, and they have all had failsafes specifically designed to prevent problems like Toyota is having.
If Toyota is having problems with their DBW system, they are Toyota problems, not DBW problems.
Exactly on point. Toyota's DBW system is the only one on the market that does not have a failsafe, which on DBW systems is a brake pedal activated throttle cutoff.
How many DBW systems have been sold in such mass numbers?
There's always the situation of something like the Chrysler minivan and failed automatics. I really don't think that there were that many failures % wise..but they sold so many of them that every trans shop was filled with them.
..anyway, attaching any fanboy "I told you they were junk" or "I told you they were a good:bad: company" is just silly. Every manufacturer has their winners and losers. BMW had head cracking issues with the 6 cylinder from the Bavaria through the 80's in the 5 series.
That said, you can keep your drive by wire. Add ABS or any of the other stuff that mostly reduces you to the least functional and competent component in the vehicle.
Then you better find your non-DBW car and keep it a long time. Emissions standards here and in Europe, and mileage standards here and in Europe, mean DBW is taking over. As far as how many other DBW systems have sold in such large numbers, just look at Toyota's largest competitors in North America, including the other transplants. There's your answer. Every major competitor, Japanese, domestic, and European, has DBW systems and the they're growing.
Toyota practically asked for this problem by speeding up the product development cycle, and performing less testing on physical prototypes, and more reliance on cyber testing with virtual prototypes. This was something Toyota admitted to publicly as far back as 2006, not that any of the Toyota fans wanted to hear it, nor have those fanboys ever acknowledged it:
http://www.forbes.com/2006/08/25/toyota-katsuaki-watanabe-0825autofacescan02.html
Quote:
Speaking in Tokyo, Watanabe denied the recalls occurred because Toyota rushed the development of some models.
Again, this was in 2006.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2008-03-13-181234878_x.htm
Quote:
But Watanabe said at least some of the problems, including time pressures and shortage of experts, stemmed from the company's dramatic growth in recent years.
That's from 2008.
And from 2007:
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20070625/FREE/70625001
Quote:
Worried about slipping quality, Toyota is slowing down its product development.
Toyota Motor Corp. will build more prototype vehicles, hire more engineers and spend more money in an effort to ensure that quality doesn't slip.
Those of us who work, or have worked, in the auto industry, especially the supplier community, have seen this coming for at least five years. Toyota, instead of getting in front of their rising quality problem, has obfuscated, obstructed, and made excuses.
The list of quality problems at Toyota is pretty long for a company whose fans speak wildly about their quality, while at the same time deriding their domestic competition. Over the last twelve years, Toyota has a serious problem with engine oil sludge that destroyed engines, that while still under warranty, Toyota refused to repair, blaming the owners. http://www.autoblog.com/2007/01/17/oil-sludging-atonement-toyota-settles-class-action-suit/
Tacoma and Tundra truck frames that rusted beyond repair (http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/08/nhtsa-launches-probe-into-2000-2001-toyota-tundra-frame-rust-cla/).
Camry's with trouble prone transmissions (http://www.autoblog.com/2006/04/26/toyota-recalls-new-camry-for-transmission-issue/ - note that the date on this 2006!!)
Toyota Avalon quality issues: http://www.autoblog.com/2006/05/02/toyota-avalon-proving-problematic-as-quality-concerns-grow-for/3 - again dateline on this is 2006
Toyota Tundra problems: http://www.autoblog.com/2007/10/22/toyota-tundra-hit-with-two-more-quality-issues/ - and yet AGAIN this is going back to 2006. This includes tailgates falling off!!
The list goes on and on.
Originally Posted By: Len_A
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
If these faults are indeed because of the DBW system, they will be the first AFAIK. Electronic throttles have been in use for over a decade with no issues like this, and they have all had failsafes specifically designed to prevent problems like Toyota is having.
If Toyota is having problems with their DBW system, they are Toyota problems, not DBW problems.
Exactly on point. Toyota's DBW system is the only one on the market that does not have a failsafe, which on DBW systems is a brake pedal activated throttle cutoff.
How many DBW systems have been sold in such mass numbers?
There's always the situation of something like the Chrysler minivan and failed automatics. I really don't think that there were that many failures % wise..but they sold so many of them that every trans shop was filled with them.
..anyway, attaching any fanboy "I told you they were junk" or "I told you they were a good:bad: company" is just silly. Every manufacturer has their winners and losers. BMW had head cracking issues with the 6 cylinder from the Bavaria through the 80's in the 5 series.
That said, you can keep your drive by wire. Add ABS or any of the other stuff that mostly reduces you to the least functional and competent component in the vehicle.
Then you better find your non-DBW car and keep it a long time. Emissions standards here and in Europe, and mileage standards here and in Europe, mean DBW is taking over. As far as how many other DBW systems have sold in such large numbers, just look at Toyota's largest competitors in North America, including the other transplants. There's your answer. Every major competitor, Japanese, domestic, and European, has DBW systems and the they're growing.
Toyota practically asked for this problem by speeding up the product development cycle, and performing less testing on physical prototypes, and more reliance on cyber testing with virtual prototypes. This was something Toyota admitted to publicly as far back as 2006, not that any of the Toyota fans wanted to hear it, nor have those fanboys ever acknowledged it:
http://www.forbes.com/2006/08/25/toyota-katsuaki-watanabe-0825autofacescan02.html
Quote:
Speaking in Tokyo, Watanabe denied the recalls occurred because Toyota rushed the development of some models.
Again, this was in 2006.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2008-03-13-181234878_x.htm
Quote:
But Watanabe said at least some of the problems, including time pressures and shortage of experts, stemmed from the company's dramatic growth in recent years.
That's from 2008.
And from 2007:
http://www.autoweek.com/article/20070625/FREE/70625001
Quote:
Worried about slipping quality, Toyota is slowing down its product development.
Toyota Motor Corp. will build more prototype vehicles, hire more engineers and spend more money in an effort to ensure that quality doesn't slip.
Those of us who work, or have worked, in the auto industry, especially the supplier community, have seen this coming for at least five years. Toyota, instead of getting in front of their rising quality problem, has obfuscated, obstructed, and made excuses.
The list of quality problems at Toyota is pretty long for a company whose fans speak wildly about their quality, while at the same time deriding their domestic competition. Over the last twelve years, Toyota has a serious problem with engine oil sludge that destroyed engines, that while still under warranty, Toyota refused to repair, blaming the owners. http://www.autoblog.com/2007/01/17/oil-sludging-atonement-toyota-settles-class-action-suit/
Tacoma and Tundra truck frames that rusted beyond repair (http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/08/nhtsa-launches-probe-into-2000-2001-toyota-tundra-frame-rust-cla/).
Camry's with trouble prone transmissions (http://www.autoblog.com/2006/04/26/toyota-recalls-new-camry-for-transmission-issue/ - note that the date on this 2006!!)
Toyota Avalon quality issues: http://www.autoblog.com/2006/05/02/toyota-avalon-proving-problematic-as-quality-concerns-grow-for/3 - again dateline on this is 2006
Toyota Tundra problems: http://www.autoblog.com/2007/10/22/toyota-tundra-hit-with-two-more-quality-issues/ - and yet AGAIN this is going back to 2006. This includes tailgates falling off!!
The list goes on and on.
Originally Posted By: Len_A
Camry's with trouble prone transmissions (http://www.autoblog.com/2006/04/26/toyota-recalls-new-camry-for-transmission-issue/ - note that the date on this 2006!!)
Toyota Avalon quality issues: http://www.autoblog.com/2006/05
Did you read the article? They recalled " . . . one half of one percent of the new 2007 Camry sedans it started building this year for a problem with their six-speed automatic transmissions."
So they had a problem with a few transmissions! They recalled them and fixed them. I'd rather see that than some of the manufacturers who refuse to see a problem with their vehicles and then not recall or fix them.
Camry's with trouble prone transmissions (http://www.autoblog.com/2006/04/26/toyota-recalls-new-camry-for-transmission-issue/ - note that the date on this 2006!!)
Toyota Avalon quality issues: http://www.autoblog.com/2006/05
Did you read the article? They recalled " . . . one half of one percent of the new 2007 Camry sedans it started building this year for a problem with their six-speed automatic transmissions."
So they had a problem with a few transmissions! They recalled them and fixed them. I'd rather see that than some of the manufacturers who refuse to see a problem with their vehicles and then not recall or fix them.
Originally Posted By: oldmaninsc
Originally Posted By: Len_A
Camry's with trouble prone transmissions (http://www.autoblog.com/2006/04/26/toyota-recalls-new-camry-for-transmission-issue/ - note that the date on this 2006!!)
Toyota Avalon quality issues: http://www.autoblog.com/2006/05
I'd rather see that than some of the manufacturers who refuse to see a problem with their vehicles and then not recall or fix them.
You mean like Toyota has by covering up, lying and delaying their UA recall for the last five years?
You mean like Toyota does by employing former NHTSA employees to get a sweet "sweep it under the rug" deal?
You mean like Toyota does by blaming suppliers parts in an effort to deflect their own liability?
You mean like Toyota does when they refuse to give black box information to investigating authorities?
Carry on with the delusion and obfuscation...."Nothing to see here folks, move along"
Originally Posted By: Len_A
Camry's with trouble prone transmissions (http://www.autoblog.com/2006/04/26/toyota-recalls-new-camry-for-transmission-issue/ - note that the date on this 2006!!)
Toyota Avalon quality issues: http://www.autoblog.com/2006/05
I'd rather see that than some of the manufacturers who refuse to see a problem with their vehicles and then not recall or fix them.
You mean like Toyota has by covering up, lying and delaying their UA recall for the last five years?
You mean like Toyota does by employing former NHTSA employees to get a sweet "sweep it under the rug" deal?
You mean like Toyota does by blaming suppliers parts in an effort to deflect their own liability?
You mean like Toyota does when they refuse to give black box information to investigating authorities?
Carry on with the delusion and obfuscation...."Nothing to see here folks, move along"
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