JHZR2
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I've always found the factory manuals to be best, and Bentley manuals to be second best.
Relying on the Factory Service Manual
- Thread starter The Critic
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I always buy a FSM for my cars. It's the only way to go. However, sometimes you need a little more info. I just had to repair the door handle on my niece's Infiniti. I found some auto repair Q&A websites which had pages out of the FSM showing what I needed. But I still had problems. One of them had a comment indicating that a magnet was needed to held a screw out of the way so that the lock cylinder could be moved. That did it. So sometimes a little extra research can save a lot of time.
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
I've always found the factory manuals to be best, and Bentley manuals to be second best.
If you own a European car and are a shade tree mechanic the Bentley manuals are actually a bit more friendly to use and understand.
The factory manuals are usually best for the experienced technician that has a better understanding from the get go.
The Bentley for VW and Audi have helped me out numerous times, I wouldn't have been able to do the job as quickly or as accurately without it.
I've always found the factory manuals to be best, and Bentley manuals to be second best.
If you own a European car and are a shade tree mechanic the Bentley manuals are actually a bit more friendly to use and understand.
The factory manuals are usually best for the experienced technician that has a better understanding from the get go.
The Bentley for VW and Audi have helped me out numerous times, I wouldn't have been able to do the job as quickly or as accurately without it.
Here is a serious question. Are you a professional or an amateur? If professional, how many SAE certificates do you have? Have you gone to trade school? Do you have diploma?
Assuming answers to all are NO; then as an amateur you should consult not only the factory service manual but anything else that would help you doing the job, including Haynes, Chilton, YouTube, BITOG
Heck, I print the relevant section and keep in the car when I take it for repairs.
Assuming answers to all are NO; then as an amateur you should consult not only the factory service manual but anything else that would help you doing the job, including Haynes, Chilton, YouTube, BITOG
Heck, I print the relevant section and keep in the car when I take it for repairs.
What is a paper manual? Haven't seen one of those for years. All the Ford service info is online, the paper manuals get sent to us and go directly in the recycling bin.
Yeah, I've still got shelves of those old paper factory jobs going back to the '60s. They are fun for nostalgia, and some of the older artwork and visuals are fantastic on them. I guess you can find many of them on the Internet now. Years ago we played "name that grille" off the old generic Chiltons over a beer or two.
But everything today is on a monitor.
A good tech will rely on the factory procedure the first few times on a brand new model or system to reduce the comebacks, especially if a new special tool is involved. But the good ones will quickly work out a faster process after that that gets the job done fine. And there's nothing wrong with that. Flat raters have to eat, too. That's the beauty of the field.
I sure don't run to the "books" for stuff and vehicles I've done for years.
But everything today is on a monitor.
A good tech will rely on the factory procedure the first few times on a brand new model or system to reduce the comebacks, especially if a new special tool is involved. But the good ones will quickly work out a faster process after that that gets the job done fine. And there's nothing wrong with that. Flat raters have to eat, too. That's the beauty of the field.
I sure don't run to the "books" for stuff and vehicles I've done for years.
Originally Posted By: RiceCake
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: RiceCake
Edit: Try asking a mechanic if 0W-30 will destroy your car. Plenty will say its too thin or it doesn't exist before saying they don't know.
And your little strawman proves what precisely ?
Proves exactly what you quoted, try reading it again. People (re: mechanics) need to be willing to educate themselves on topics by admitting they don't know for sure, rather then making assumptions based on potentially highly faulty reasoning.
Edit: Problem is reading the rest of this post plenty of it comes down to the almighty dollar factor. So its a give and take. This is just how I deal with my own cars and educating myself with manuals. In a perfect world people wouldn't have to basically rush everything to make it profitable but as long as it leaves the lot at the end of the day, the shops happy, so just get to it.
Heard about this on the radio today, fits your quote perfectly:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/18/who-won-the-first-lady-debate-kimmel-prank_n_1979792.html
They were saying the same thing (only in reference to politics), everybody thinks they are an expert but nobody wants to do the work of research.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: RiceCake
Edit: Try asking a mechanic if 0W-30 will destroy your car. Plenty will say its too thin or it doesn't exist before saying they don't know.
And your little strawman proves what precisely ?
Proves exactly what you quoted, try reading it again. People (re: mechanics) need to be willing to educate themselves on topics by admitting they don't know for sure, rather then making assumptions based on potentially highly faulty reasoning.
Edit: Problem is reading the rest of this post plenty of it comes down to the almighty dollar factor. So its a give and take. This is just how I deal with my own cars and educating myself with manuals. In a perfect world people wouldn't have to basically rush everything to make it profitable but as long as it leaves the lot at the end of the day, the shops happy, so just get to it.
Heard about this on the radio today, fits your quote perfectly:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/18/who-won-the-first-lady-debate-kimmel-prank_n_1979792.html
They were saying the same thing (only in reference to politics), everybody thinks they are an expert but nobody wants to do the work of research.
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There are situations when a factory manual is essential. There are other times when no manual is needed. One thing is for certain, more information is always better than less.
I was troubleshooting the traction control system on a1987 Porsche 959. They only made 230 of these cars so there are no experts. I had a factory manual but it was written in German. I knew troubleshooting without the wiring diagram would be nearly impossible so I translated it using google translate. I spent about 5 hours translating the diagram and creating a troubleshooting test plan. My boss came up to me at about hour 4 and was peeved that I hadn't even begun turning a wrench on the car. When I finished creating the test plan I set out on the tests. Within 15 minutes I located the problem. The car had about 1000 miles on it in 25 years and the brush contacts on the traction control motors had oxidized causing them to not work. A little Emory paper on the commutators fixed it. If I didn't have that factory manual it could have easily taken forty hours to troubleshoot this problem through a lot of trial and error.
There are other jobs that I wouldn't consider consulting the manual in advance such as a waterpump on a four cylinder Honda unless I suspected there may be a short cut. However, I have the experience to discern whether I need to consult a manual.
I was troubleshooting the traction control system on a1987 Porsche 959. They only made 230 of these cars so there are no experts. I had a factory manual but it was written in German. I knew troubleshooting without the wiring diagram would be nearly impossible so I translated it using google translate. I spent about 5 hours translating the diagram and creating a troubleshooting test plan. My boss came up to me at about hour 4 and was peeved that I hadn't even begun turning a wrench on the car. When I finished creating the test plan I set out on the tests. Within 15 minutes I located the problem. The car had about 1000 miles on it in 25 years and the brush contacts on the traction control motors had oxidized causing them to not work. A little Emory paper on the commutators fixed it. If I didn't have that factory manual it could have easily taken forty hours to troubleshoot this problem through a lot of trial and error.
There are other jobs that I wouldn't consider consulting the manual in advance such as a waterpump on a four cylinder Honda unless I suspected there may be a short cut. However, I have the experience to discern whether I need to consult a manual.
Quote:
There are other jobs that I wouldn't consider consulting the manual in advance such as a waterpump on a four cylinder Honda unless I suspected there may be a short cut. However, I have the experience to discern whether I need to consult a manual.
Exactly. If you ever have trouble with a German manual just PM me i can translate it in a few minutes.
Sometimes these translation programs while helpful don't translate the meaning very well especially with technical terms.
There are other jobs that I wouldn't consider consulting the manual in advance such as a waterpump on a four cylinder Honda unless I suspected there may be a short cut. However, I have the experience to discern whether I need to consult a manual.
Exactly. If you ever have trouble with a German manual just PM me i can translate it in a few minutes.
Sometimes these translation programs while helpful don't translate the meaning very well especially with technical terms.
Originally Posted By: Vikas
Don't they have two sections, one for HDS and another for GST i.e. Honda Diagnostic System vs generic scanner tool?
I found that the service manual for my Civic (which I still have even though I don't have the car... need to get rid of it) was pretty good about providing instructions usable to a DIY'er without the HDS.
Don't they have two sections, one for HDS and another for GST i.e. Honda Diagnostic System vs generic scanner tool?
I found that the service manual for my Civic (which I still have even though I don't have the car... need to get rid of it) was pretty good about providing instructions usable to a DIY'er without the HDS.
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I really like BMW's TIS, it is a great system. I have never had anything more elaborate than a Haynes or Chilton for my Ford vehicles, so the TIS was a big change for me.
All of the good mechanics I know use ALLDATA or the like to look up whatever vehicle they are looking on. My Chrysler mech's use the Chrysler system, which is similar to TIS, but web driven.
A GOOD mechanic is one who makes sure he is doing the repair correctly. If that requires looking up the details of the repair, then that is what he'll do.
All of the good mechanics I know use ALLDATA or the like to look up whatever vehicle they are looking on. My Chrysler mech's use the Chrysler system, which is similar to TIS, but web driven.
A GOOD mechanic is one who makes sure he is doing the repair correctly. If that requires looking up the details of the repair, then that is what he'll do.
Service manuals have their place and using them is definitely not a sign of being inexperienced.
I like consulting service manuals for interior trim or work that requires removal of several "layers" of stuff in specific order. It usually saves a lot of time figuring the sequence out and saves a lot of broken tabs on interior trim.
I like consulting service manuals for interior trim or work that requires removal of several "layers" of stuff in specific order. It usually saves a lot of time figuring the sequence out and saves a lot of broken tabs on interior trim.
Originally Posted By: RiceCake
I'll just put it this way, I've heard in my years on this earth, plenty of people telling me the way things "are supposed to be done" or "how they're always done".
Almost unanimously, its never what the manual suggests, the manual written by the people who engineered the car. Or its not what the manufacturer of the shingles recommend for installing it on a roof. Or its not the procedure recommended by the paint company for applying the paint. Etc, etc, etc...
There are certain cases where there is a better way, and I respect good mechanics for knowing a thing or two about it. Some simple stuff I can understand anyone can "figure out" and some techs have plenty of cars down pat and won't blink an eye doing a job without checking a manual.
The main problem is people who can't do the most fundamentally helpful thing anyone can do. Admitting they don't know, and admitting they want to get advice and double check. The manual is advice to live by and anyone who can respect it, awesome.
Problem is checking a manual for a lot of people is admitting you don't know, and doing so is emasculating and shows you somehow must be an idiot who will screw up...
Plenty of people will wing things over personal pride; that being said I study and reference manuals...all manuals I come by...religiously.
Edit: Try asking a mechanic if 0W-30 will destroy your car. Plenty will say its too thin or it doesn't exist before saying they don't know.
+1,000,000
I'll just put it this way, I've heard in my years on this earth, plenty of people telling me the way things "are supposed to be done" or "how they're always done".
Almost unanimously, its never what the manual suggests, the manual written by the people who engineered the car. Or its not what the manufacturer of the shingles recommend for installing it on a roof. Or its not the procedure recommended by the paint company for applying the paint. Etc, etc, etc...
There are certain cases where there is a better way, and I respect good mechanics for knowing a thing or two about it. Some simple stuff I can understand anyone can "figure out" and some techs have plenty of cars down pat and won't blink an eye doing a job without checking a manual.
The main problem is people who can't do the most fundamentally helpful thing anyone can do. Admitting they don't know, and admitting they want to get advice and double check. The manual is advice to live by and anyone who can respect it, awesome.
Problem is checking a manual for a lot of people is admitting you don't know, and doing so is emasculating and shows you somehow must be an idiot who will screw up...
Plenty of people will wing things over personal pride; that being said I study and reference manuals...all manuals I come by...religiously.
Edit: Try asking a mechanic if 0W-30 will destroy your car. Plenty will say its too thin or it doesn't exist before saying they don't know.
+1,000,000
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