Reliability of European Makes and cars in general

[RooflessVW]

I had a weird squeak on my '05 MINI S.

Turns out the alternator was loose - BMW in Rothenburg o.d.t. charged me for the bolt and an hour of labor.

I shudder to think what would have happened in the states. New alternator? 8 hours labor? Or "could not duplicate?"

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by MCompact
On a local BMW forum there is a guy who was quoted over $7,000 to fix the SMG pump on his old M6. The real problem turned out to be the electric motor that powers the pump- a much simpler and less expensive fix. A couple of other members noted how they picked up cars for dead cheap because an alleged mechanic quoted an astronomical price to the original owner- and the actual fix ended up costing a fraction of the original estimate.

Of course. Think about heater element in DEF active tank in BMW X5 35d. Tank is $2,400, heater element $206. Of course, dealership only changes complete tank, while DIY heater element takes 2-3hrs with few beers.


Originally Posted by MCompact
On a local BMW forum there is a guy who was quoted over $7,000 to fix the SMG pump on his old M6. The real problem turned out to be the electric motor that powers the pump- a much simpler and less expensive fix. A couple of other members noted how they picked up cars for dead cheap because an alleged mechanic quoted an astronomical price to the original owner- and the actual fix ended up costing a fraction of the original estimate.


Wow.


Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by MCompact
On a local BMW forum there is a guy who was quoted over $7,000 to fix the SMG pump on his old M6. The real problem turned out to be the electric motor that powers the pump- a much simpler and less expensive fix. A couple of other members noted how they picked up cars for dead cheap because an alleged mechanic quoted an astronomical price to the original owner- and the actual fix ended up costing a fraction of the original estimate.

Of course. Think about heater element in DEF active tank in BMW X5 35d. Tank is $2,400, heater element $206. Of course, dealership only changes complete tank, while DIY heater element takes 2-3hrs with few beers.


One really is at the mercy of the shop but I guess it has been this way for decades. When I had my 335d the dealer (OE extended warranty) performed about $5k of work on my DEF system over a 12 month period and never fixed the problem (When the vehicle was not operating the system would pump all of the DEF out the vent pipes).

 

[StevieC]

There is also the over complication of things in German vehicles, as an example the over complication of PCV systems. VW is a prime example of this. Ridiculous on some models when a $3 domestic type PCV works just fine.
Or special tools to even service them because they have to be "different" when every other OE gets by just fine doing it an easier more common way.

Honestly of all the German cars we have had come through the door whether the light was on or not and you would scan it, 9 times out of 10 it would be storing codes for some sort of fault.

I think here the only folks that buy these vehicles are the hobbyists that want to drive something different and the snobs that want a status symbol in the driveway because they certainly aren't driving it for longevity and for economic reasons on this continent.

I'll take an older Mercedes, VW/Audi or even and older Volvo any day of the week over the modern junk. (Although some models are ok from the current OE's)
They were simple and for the most part bullet proof if looked after.

I loved our 89 VW Cabriolet with the Mechanical Fuel injection system. Decent on gas, and fun to drive. Easy to fix and reliable.

 

[DejaVue]

Originally Posted by StevieC
There is also the over complication of things in German vehicles, as an example the over complication of PCV systems. VW is a prime example of this. Ridiculous on some models when a $3 domestic type PCV works just fine.

haha. I was going to type something similar yesterday.

While American cars would have a PCV valve that costs $5 and can be replaced in five minutes, Volvo had a more extravagant setup of multiple hoses and a big plastic box, requiring removing the fuel rail and intake manifold to get to it, which most people never do and then it can cause big problems.

Chevy engine? timing chain.
VW engine? timing chain AND timing belt. With a plastic tensioner on the chain that is recommended by owners to be changed at the same time the belt is changed but most people won't.

Of course I'm just over-generalizing on brands there with a couple examples that happened to come to mind.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Honestly of all the German cars we have had come through the door whether the light was on or not and you would scan it, 9 times out of 10 it would be storing codes for some sort of fault.

I think here the only folks that buy these vehicles are the hobbyists that want to drive something different and the snobs that want a status symbol in the driveway because they certainly aren't driving it for longevity and for economic reasons on this continent.


Well they also have options that you can't get on a regular car. Active curve illumination, headlamp washers, massage seats, power trunk closer are some that come to mind. You can't really get them on American cars and not that common even on Japanese cars.

 

[StevieC]

Lexus has headlamp curve on some of their models, head lamp washer is really not needed (I live in an area that would warrant it if it was truly needed) massage seats?

So you are going to buy an overpriced unreliable vehicle for these features that are novelty at best?

100 years of cars being on the road and how many needed these features?

Hobbyists I guess but it seems silly to me and it probably does to most or they would be putting it in every vehicle out there.

Look at Chrysler, they have tried beverage coolers and onboard vacuums in their vehicles.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by StevieC
Honestly of all the German cars we have had come through the door whether the light was on or not and you would scan it, 9 times out of 10 it would be storing codes for some sort of fault.

I think here the only folks that buy these vehicles are the hobbyists that want to drive something different and the snobs that want a status symbol in the driveway because they certainly aren't driving it for longevity and for economic reasons on this continent.


Well they also have options that you can't get on a regular car. Active curve illumination, headlamp washers, massage seats, power trunk closer are some that come to mind. You can't really get them on American cars and not that common even on Japanese cars.





That is changing quickly as many new vehicles have those options these days. Our Mazda CX-5 has the turning headlights, power hatch, heads up display, auto high beams, automatic headlights, and radar cruise control among others.

A lot of technology is going in and being added to new cars these days.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Lexus has headlamp curve on some of their models, head lamp washer is really not needed (I live in an area that would warrant it if it was truly needed) massage seats?

So you are going to buy an overpriced unreliable vehicle for these features that are novelty at best?

100 years of cars being on the road and how many needed these features?

Hobbyists I guess but it seems silly to me and it probably does to most or they would be putting it in every vehicle out there.

Look at Chrysler, they have tried beverage coolers and onboard vacuums in their vehicles.


A lot of those features are available on higher trim vehicles. My Jeep has the headlight washers for example, and they are wonderful for keeping the salt crust accumulation off in the winter months. My M5 had them and I appreciated them on it for much the same reason. It also had heated washer nozzles. The Jeep also has the power lift gate, easy exit seat, tilt-down in reverse mirror, auto-levelling HID's (no curve assist though), adaptive cruise, collision warning and avoidance, front and rear parksense....etc

 

[StevieC]

It's just so they can charge more it's not truly needed.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by StevieC
It's just so they can charge more it's not truly needed.




Slow day at work?

 

[MCompact]

People buy cars for a myriad of different reasons. I'm my case, I have driven BMWs since 1983 because I like the way they combine performance and comfort. Aside from an eight year dalliance with a Mazdaspeed 3, BMWs have served as my daily drivers and/or my HPDE instructor cars. Are they a good choice for others? That's up to them.

 

[SatinSilver]

Buy what you like. Kind of simple. What I don't care for is the constant brand bashing on here by some. Even my least favorite car isn't all that bad. If I won one in a contest/lottery I'd still be happy I won a car.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted by StevieC
Lexus has headlamp curve on some of their models, head lamp washer is really not needed (I live in an area that would warrant it if it was truly needed) massage seats?

So you are going to buy an overpriced unreliable vehicle for these features that are novelty at best?

100 years of cars being on the road and how many needed these features?

Hobbyists I guess but it seems silly to me and it probably does to most or they would be putting it in every vehicle out there.

Look at Chrysler, they have tried beverage coolers and onboard vacuums in their vehicles.


That's the whole point, it's not really needed, but it's a cool feature to have.

Like Consumer Reports or some magazine complaining about gut wrenching acceleration on a Mustang. That's the whole point.

And to answer your question yes. I bought two of them. I'm not sure about the unreliable part, haven't really spent that much on repairs, it's really tires/rims that have been expensive.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by StevieC
It's just so they can charge more it's not truly needed.




Slow day at work?

Actually all our computers locked us out due to a security suite upgrade that didn't go well and so I have been on my phone most of the day because I literally have nothing else to do until they fix it and I can't leave the office because the computers need to have an internet connection to repair the problem remotely.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by StevieC
Lexus has headlamp curve on some of their models, head lamp washer is really not needed (I live in an area that would warrant it if it was truly needed) massage seats?

So you are going to buy an overpriced unreliable vehicle for these features that are novelty at best?

100 years of cars being on the road and how many needed these features?

Hobbyists I guess but it seems silly to me and it probably does to most or they would be putting it in every vehicle out there.

Look at Chrysler, they have tried beverage coolers and onboard vacuums in their vehicles.


That's the whole point, it's not really needed, but it's a cool feature to have.

Like Consumer Reports or some magazine complaining about gut wrenching acceleration on a Mustang. That's the whole point.

And to answer your question yes. I bought two of them. I'm not sure about the unreliable part, haven't really spent that much on repairs, it's really tires/rims that have been expensive.


How many miles and what models?

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by StevieC
Honestly of all the German cars we have had come through the door whether the light was on or not and you would scan it, 9 times out of 10 it would be storing codes for some sort of fault.

I think here the only folks that buy these vehicles are the hobbyists that want to drive something different and the snobs that want a status symbol in the driveway because they certainly aren't driving it for longevity and for economic reasons on this continent.


Well they also have options that you can't get on a regular car. Active curve illumination, headlamp washers, massage seats, power trunk closer are some that come to mind. You can't really get them on American cars and not that common even on Japanese cars.





That is changing quickly as many new vehicles have those options these days. Our Mazda CX-5 has the turning headlights, power hatch, heads up display, auto high beams, automatic headlights, and radar cruise control among others.

A lot of technology is going in and being added to new cars these days.


Are they bixenons and do they have the headlamp washers? A lot of the high end stuff is trickling down to regular cars, but then when you try and find them, they're not that common on the lots. I've noticed some car companies while they have keyless go like Mercedes, they limit it to just the front doors or they use one button for both lock and unlock functions.

 

[StevieC]

Because OEM's are running out of things to add to keep people buying. Only so much lipstick you can put on the same pig and re-sell it. And everyone wants to outdo the others in value proposition as the second point.

Kia/Hyundai really brought the game to the table with Hyundai offering a lot of things in lower trim models that you had to pay for in other makers. Like power windows as standard, now they all have power windows as standard whereas this was an option before. Or bluetooth or Android Auto / Apple Car Play. Options before and now standard in most vehicles.

The reason we don't see headlight washers on all cars is because it's at the bottom of the list for "want" features. Sure it's nice to have but it's not really needed over say A/C being standard now and less important than power windows being standard or bluetooth with all the driving laws popping up on this continent.

There is also a price-point these vehicles have to sell at that the market will accept so head-light washing units also get dropped for economy in price which is why we see it on expensive models where price is less of a problem and people "want" the toys. Don't forget too, anything they add they have to warranty for a period of time so that has to be factored into the cost as well.

 

[wings&wheels]

Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by StevieC
Honestly of all the German cars we have had come through the door whether the light was on or not and you would scan it, 9 times out of 10 it would be storing codes for some sort of fault.

I think here the only folks that buy these vehicles are the hobbyists that want to drive something different and the snobs that want a status symbol in the driveway because they certainly aren't driving it for longevity and for economic reasons on this continent.


Well they also have options that you can't get on a regular car. Active curve illumination, headlamp washers, massage seats, power trunk closer are some that come to mind. You can't really get them on American cars and not that common even on Japanese cars.


Also style and material quality. We prefer conservative styling with classic leather and wood interiors which tends to be offered by the European makes. When you spend a lot of time in a vehicle, you want to enjoy it.

I'll speak to our family cars, Range Rover and BMW, which while having a myriad of features, still both have understated interiors and panels. Also, the mid level+ European makes, in my experience, use better quality materials. My last Grand Cherokee's 'leather' interior, despite being the top trim line, was leather faced only and the vinyl seat sides started to crack at ~25K miles... Our SAAB 9-7x (Trailblazer in disguise) had peeling radio knobs in two years... Frustrating.

Wanting a decent place to enjoy time behind the wheel is as valid a reason as any for a car decision.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by PimTac
Originally Posted by Wolf359
Originally Posted by StevieC
Honestly of all the German cars we have had come through the door whether the light was on or not and you would scan it, 9 times out of 10 it would be storing codes for some sort of fault.

I think here the only folks that buy these vehicles are the hobbyists that want to drive something different and the snobs that want a status symbol in the driveway because they certainly aren't driving it for longevity and for economic reasons on this continent.


Well they also have options that you can't get on a regular car. Active curve illumination, headlamp washers, massage seats, power trunk closer are some that come to mind. You can't really get them on American cars and not that common even on Japanese cars.





That is changing quickly as many new vehicles have those options these days. Our Mazda CX-5 has the turning headlights, power hatch, heads up display, auto high beams, automatic headlights, and radar cruise control among others.

A lot of technology is going in and being added to new cars these days.


Are they bixenons and do they have the headlamp washers? A lot of the high end stuff is trickling down to regular cars, but then when you try and find them, they're not that common on the lots. I've noticed some car companies while they have keyless go like Mercedes, they limit it to just the front doors or they use one button for both lock and unlock functions.




LED and no washers. The lights are auto leveling and turn as you go around corners. Our keyless fob stays in the pocket and I use the small button to lock and unlock all doors with one push. The computer allows me to change settings as well.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted by PimTac
LED and no washers. The lights are auto leveling and turn as you go around corners. Our keyless fob stays in the pocket and I use the small button to lock and unlock all doors with one push. The computer allows me to change settings as well.


Yeah, the bixenons also auto level. There's two separate sensors, one under the door handle to unlock and one outside the door handle to lock. They are there on all 4 door handles. Has dynamic seats also which inflate as you take turns and also has a massage function.