Reliability of European Makes and cars in general

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by emg
Originally Posted by PimTac
Kind of like some German cars in the US that have the reliability of a frozen burrito.


I suspect part of it is that many Americans think cars should need nothing more than an oil change whenever they remember that maybe the oil has been in there for a couple of years too long, whereas most Europeans are happy to pay for whatever maintenance the car actually needs. While Americans make jokes about Fiat reliability, mine in the UK were always 99.99% reliable so long as they were serviced properly.



Maintenance is one thing reliability (aka durability) is another. IMO we're all talking about durability.

 

[PimTac]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted by emg
Originally Posted by PimTac
Kind of like some German cars in the US that have the reliability of a frozen burrito.


I suspect part of it is that many Americans think cars should need nothing more than an oil change whenever they remember that maybe the oil has been in there for a couple of years too long, whereas most Europeans are happy to pay for whatever maintenance the car actually needs. While Americans make jokes about Fiat reliability, mine in the UK were always 99.99% reliable so long as they were serviced properly.



Maintenance is one thing reliability (aka durability) is another. IMO we're all talking about durability.






Durability and reliability are separate things if you have to constantly maintain a vehicle to keep it running. For example, my ‘85 Ford Ranger made it to around 130k but it was also in the shop 2-3 times a year for issues. It was not reliable as it left me stranded a few times.

If you can own a vehicle that just requires normal maintenance and it lasts a long time then the two are synergistic. In a unreliable vehicle that synergy is broken.

 

[littlehulkster]

Originally Posted by emg
Originally Posted by PimTac
Kind of like some German cars in the US that have the reliability of a frozen burrito.


I suspect part of it is that many Americans think cars should need nothing more than an oil change whenever they remember that maybe the oil has been in there for a couple of years too long, whereas most Europeans are happy to pay for whatever maintenance the car actually needs. While Americans make jokes about Fiat reliability, mine in the UK were always 99.99% reliable so long as they were serviced properly.


No, the thing is that Europeans are required by law to have their cars inspected by a mechanic on a regular basis (as often as every year in some countries) and any faults or maintenence items must be corrected or changed or the car cannot be driven until they are.

ANY car would be reliable under such a scheme, but nothing like that exists in America. Only emissions testing and maybe some basic safety checks (if the lights work, glass is in tact, brakes function and et cetera) is done in the US.

Americans are not so big on the Ship of Theseus model of "reliability", probably because most of America does not have the level of public transportation common in Europe, and so there are a great many places where you need a car to have a job and not starve.

 

[vavavroom]

A car's reliability is direct proportional to the competence of the maintenance the vehicle receives. An informed mechanic knows the weaknesses of individual vehicles and can proactively intervene. The more sophisticated components are the more fragile they tend to be. More complexity equals more failure points. Any make or model can be reliable or unreliable. There's also luck or lack thereof involved.

 

[WyrTwister]

Originally Posted by BMWTurboDzl
Have you every wondered why Euro cars suffer from so many electrical issues and copious amounts of plastic components which undergo catastrophic failure? IMO the primary driver behind that is the EU-End of Life Vehicle Directive of 2000. Basically the end result is a vehicle of which upwards to 85% can be easily recyclable or 95% recovered. This also impacts makes sold in other jurisdictions because manufacturers use the same parts across all markets. So now you know why your vehicle uses that garbage material for the valve cover/oil pan gasket.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:02000L0053-20130611&qid=1405610569066&from=EN

Something to chew on.



I have heard German cars are money pits . Do not know about the rest of Europe ? I have no plans to buy one , unless it was an absolute steal & I saved enough money to pay for a potential overhaul .

 

[WyrTwister]

Originally Posted by DoubleWasp
Originally Posted by emg

Kind of like some German cars in the US that have the reliability of a frozen burrito.

Lot cheaper and easier than frequently changing women.



I do not know first hand .

Never owned a European car & I am still married to my first wife , since 1980 . Planning on keeping her until the Lord takes one of us home . Think she may do the same ?

But , in addition to being cheaper & easier than changing women , I figure it is is less stressful on the nervous system & blood pressure ?

 

[supton]

Originally Posted by WyrTwister
I have heard German cars are money pits . Do not know about the rest of Europe ? I have no plans to buy one , unless it was an absolute steal & I saved enough money to pay for a potential overhaul .

Anything can be a money pit. They certainly can be if the mechanic isn't that good...

I had a VW and managed to avoid most of the issues. It had a few over the years but it wasn't that bad, and it was a nice tradeoff (I was ok with those quirks in return for things I wanted). I even bought it new, and it was the first year that engine was sold in the US! Talk about gamble. $700 per fuel injector worried me, but 300,000 miles later, they never had to be touched.

Although in analysis it wound up being no cheaper than a soul-sucking 30mpg econobox in the end, despite getting 45mpg. Repair and maintenance costs were up there.

 

[WyrTwister]

Oldest son had a BMW . He found an independent mechanic to service it . Began having some sort of problem & took it to the mechanic . The mechanic told our son , if the BMW belonged to him , he would trade it off . Would cost more to fix it than was practical .

Our son traded it off for a Lincoln .

Personally , I can not afford either . If I could , I would choose the Lincoln over the BMW . As it is , I will be sticking with GM & Ford .

 

[240_Ed]

My Volvos, old and new, have been mostly bulletproof and 99% of things that have come up have been fixable in the driveway. My VWs not so much (mostly electrical niggles, and a water pump that went less than a year from new on one). I have given up on VW group cars, as much as I like driving them, until they fix their ongoing well-known reliability issues and godawful customer service. Also had bad experiences with a Ford Focus that leaked oil most of its life, blew several ignition coil packs and hated going into 3rd gear.

I haven't owned one personally but many of my family swear by 4cyl Toyotas for reliability. My mother had a 2002 Yaris 1.3 5 speed from new until 2015 when it was written off by being rear ended (tough little thing had survived two previous rear enders, thank you drivers of Somerset), and over its 130,000 miles it had never needed any more maintenance than 10,000 mile/yearly services with 5w30 synthetic and a couple of wheel bearings.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by WyrTwister
Oldest son had a BMW . He found an independent mechanic to service it . Began having some sort of problem & took it to the mechanic . The mechanic told our son , if the BMW belonged to him , he would trade it off . Would cost more to fix it than was practical .

Our son traded it off for a Lincoln .

Personally , I can not afford either . If I could , I would choose the Lincoln over the BMW . As it is , I will be sticking with GM & Ford .

The example of reliability.
Some things one just cannot make up.
Tell him to change mechanic.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by littlehulkster
Originally Posted by emg
Originally Posted by PimTac
Kind of like some German cars in the US that have the reliability of a frozen burrito.


I suspect part of it is that many Americans think cars should need nothing more than an oil change whenever they remember that maybe the oil has been in there for a couple of years too long, whereas most Europeans are happy to pay for whatever maintenance the car actually needs. While Americans make jokes about Fiat reliability, mine in the UK were always 99.99% reliable so long as they were serviced properly.


No, the thing is that Europeans are required by law to have their cars inspected by a mechanic on a regular basis (as often as every year in some countries) and any faults or maintenence items must be corrected or changed or the car cannot be driven until they are.

ANY car would be reliable under such a scheme, but nothing like that exists in America. Only emissions testing and maybe some basic safety checks (if the lights work, glass is in tact, brakes function and et cetera) is done in the US.

Americans are not so big on the Ship of Theseus model of "reliability", probably because most of America does not have the level of public transportation common in Europe, and so there are a great many places where you need a car to have a job and not starve.

Not quite true. In Europe only safety issues are addressed and emissions. Actually, in many countries they would not check glass as first police patrol would take care of that.
But, generally due to that culture European cars are much better in that department than any other, handling, braking etc.
Generally what is inspected is:
1. Shock absorbers (minimum 75% effectiveness). Saw Honda Pilot few days ago swinging back end, and yes, if one ignores that , it is reliable. Or as my brother in law, oil consumption of 2qt per 1000 miles.
2. Brake force
3. Brake fluid boiling point (that is where two years service interval comes from).
4. Suspension.

Now, if one ignores all these issues, yeah, car is reliable. My father in law has 2009 Pilot with some 80k on the clock, 4th set of brakes (again started to vibrate), VCM issue, second front differential, but it does not bother him one bit. He is still chugging 50mph in left lane where speed limit is 70mph, thinking this is his final purchase.
Also, majority of Europe uses cars to go to work, not public transportation. The whole thing in France with yellow vests started over price of gas.

 

[MCompact]

Originally Posted by WyrTwister


I have heard German cars are money pits . Do not know about the rest of Europe ? I have no plans to buy one , unless it was an absolute steal & I saved enough money to pay for a potential overhaul .


For 2018 I spent a grand total of $1,255 maintaining/repairing my M235i, X1, 318ti, and Clubman.
I sure hope I can avoid a Chapter 7.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted by MCompact
Originally Posted by WyrTwister


I have heard German cars are money pits . Do not know about the rest of Europe ? I have no plans to buy one , unless it was an absolute steal & I saved enough money to pay for a potential overhaul .


For 2018 I spent a grand total of $1,255 maintaining/repairing my M235i, X1, 318ti, and Clubman.
I sure hope I can avoid a Chapter 7.


1 percenter !!!!

 

[555]

Originally Posted by KrisZ
Originally Posted by Alfred_B
Having lived in Europe, I don't recall us putting Japanese cars on a pedestal for reliability and putting down Euro cars. It was a mixed bag with FIATs and Toyota Hilux being the most long lived. Not sure why FIAT had such longevity, though. Pandas and Unos were quite good cars


Yup, Europeans at least have some sense left to support their own manufacturing base. North American customers were convinced that Japanese car manufacturers are the gods of automotive world. Yet, these supposedly superior machines have yet to make a significant dent in the European market.


Exchange rate of Euro vs Yen hurts sales of Japanese manufactured products the most. With the exchange rate and European taxes regular Japanese cars priced out at luxury German car levels. Recently the E.U. and Japan signed a trade agreement which will help make Japanese products more price attractive.

 

[dave1251]

As a General rule European autos have been average or below in reliability for a decade or longer.

 

[DejaVue]

Originally Posted by emg

I suspect part of it is that many Americans think cars should need nothing more than an oil change whenever they remember that maybe the oil has been in there for a couple of years too long, whereas most Europeans are happy to pay for whatever maintenance the car actually needs. While Americans make jokes about Fiat reliability, mine in the UK were always 99.99% reliable so long as they were serviced properly.

Well, I'd consider a car that can handle being neglected as more reliable than one that can't.

I think at least part of Euro cars being considered less reliable (at least in the past) is/was due to mechanics and parts for them being more scarce which tends to mean higher prices. Something typical breaks on an American car, the person brings it to any shop and has a choice of 10 different manufacturers for the replacement part. Something breaks on a Euro car, there's a choice of two shops, and the only place to get the part is from the dealer. So then the reputation for "the unreliable money pit" Euro car continues to build every time something breaks.

Thanks to the internet and things, Euro owners can now share their fix-it tips and how-to's, find more shops, and aftermarket replacement parts are more available and cheaper than previous. I avoid buying a used car if it doesn't have a decent internet following.

 

[RooflessVW]

I think another issue is the difference between mechanics in the USA vs mechanics in, say, Germany.

I lived in Germany for 6 years and never had to take a car back to the shop for the same problem. I also never had the words "could not duplicate," "no problem found," or "vehicle is operating as designed" written on a repair order.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by rooflessVW
I think another issue is the difference between mechanics in the USA vs mechanics in, say, Germany.

I lived in Germany for 6 years and never had to take a car back to the shop for the same problem. I also never had the words "could not duplicate," "no problem found," or "vehicle is operating as designed" written on a repair order.

Bcs they actually think what could be a problem. Think about all those replaced ZF6 transmissions bcs of mechatronics in BMW, Audi and other dealerships.

 

[MCompact]

On a local BMW forum there is a guy who was quoted over $7,000 to fix the SMG pump on his old M6. The real problem turned out to be the electric motor that powers the pump- a much simpler and less expensive fix. A couple of other members noted how they picked up cars for dead cheap because an alleged mechanic quoted an astronomical price to the original owner- and the actual fix ended up costing a fraction of the original estimate.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by MCompact
On a local BMW forum there is a guy who was quoted over $7,000 to fix the SMG pump on his old M6. The real problem turned out to be the electric motor that powers the pump- a much simpler and less expensive fix. A couple of other members noted how they picked up cars for dead cheap because an alleged mechanic quoted an astronomical price to the original owner- and the actual fix ended up costing a fraction of the original estimate.

Of course. Think about heater element in DEF active tank in BMW X5 35d. Tank is $2,400, heater element $206. Of course, dealership only changes complete tank, while DIY heater element takes 2-3hrs with few beers.