Redline 5w30 - 7,250mi/46.5k mi - 2007 Subaru WRX

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sorry, looks like it was bruce381 that made the TBN/TAN comment:

Originally Posted By: bruce381
My rule of thumb is when TBN drops close to TAN change it...
 
Originally Posted By: electrolover
The copper is a concern.


Depends if it's trending up or down, but without knowing the universal averages it's hard to know if it's something serious like turbo bearing wear or just oil cooler chemistry.
Some of the comments from Blackstones are a bit off, because 2ppm of Tin could be present because of quite a number of old contamination issues and their counts are not accurate enough to pass comment on 2ppm anyway.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm

Read the BOITG uoa faq. Says lead and copper #s come from bearing wear.


http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/646/copper-diesel-engine-oil

And

http://www.oaitesting.com/faq_new.htm

Q: My sample has a high copper number. Where is it coming from?

A: If only the copper is high, but no other metals such as lead, tin, or aluminum are elevated, it is mostly an oxide of copper from the oil cooler. As the oil cooler is exposed to the heat from the engine oil, it can sometimes oxidize the copper, which will show up in the analysis report. This is considered a normal condition and no corrective action is required. This process usually will taper off or stop occurring over time.

-Dennis
 
Copper and its alloys are covered by a thin uniform layer of corrosion products.
The covering by a film is the self-extinguishing process, as corrosion products protect the surface of the metal from interacting with the environment.
The process of formation of the film consists of two stages. First - the formation of primary film of the mixture of pure oxides and copper oxide. During second stages there is formation of the oxide layer - from several months to several years.

If this oxide layer will dissolve, the corrosion process never stops, slowing down in the new oil and speeding on the old (with acids) oil.

And it's enough dangerous passage of the radiator, right?

p.s. The same stories with a lot of Copper with Redline oils:
1) https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1787039&page=1
2) https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2891707&page=1
3) https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=247193&page=1
4) http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...true#Post983000


p.p.s. And what about a lot of lead?

5) http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...rue#Post2336886
6) https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2309193&page=1
7) https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=250550&page=1
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: electrolover
The copper is a concern.


Depends if it's trending up or down, but without knowing the universal averages it's hard to know if it's something serious like turbo bearing wear or just oil cooler chemistry.
Some of the comments from Blackstones are a bit off, because 2ppm of Tin could be present because of quite a number of old contamination issues and their counts are not accurate enough to pass comment on 2ppm anyway.


Blackstone is a professional lab but in your expert opinion their comments are a bit off.
The comedy begins
 
I don't know this engine, but it's most likely that if it has no turbo the Copper figure is just cooler chemistry.
The comment on M1 0/40 is correct as it does shear down, but so do all oils and you would need to use a similar full synthetic 15/40 to see a real difference in how fast it shears.
I had a look at a set of UOA results for M1 use in a similar engine as my Volvo TDI and it sheared down by a similar figure to the G4 5/40 I use, so the effect seems to be fairly small.
If an engine is certified to use an X/30 grade as most are, the fact an X/40 grade shears down a grade is no big deal. Not seen a UOA for M1 0/40 shear two grades without serious fuel contamination so far.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Clevy
Originally Posted By: skyship
Originally Posted By: electrolover
The copper is a concern.


Depends if it's trending up or down, but without knowing the universal averages it's hard to know if it's something serious like turbo bearing wear or just oil cooler chemistry.
Some of the comments from Blackstones are a bit off, because 2ppm of Tin could be present because of quite a number of old contamination issues and their counts are not accurate enough to pass comment on 2ppm anyway.


Blackstone is a professional lab but in your expert opinion their comments are a bit off.
The comedy begins


I use Blackstone and would say they are less than perfect, but if you ask questions they get checked by the boss and the second reply is a lot better. Their comments are a lot better than no comments and their universal averages are very usefull.
I don't like their simplistic approach to TBN as I am in the one third of VOA camp, because if you don't have a TAN it's impossible to know what is happening when you get down to the 1 minimum figure. Not sure if TAN is free with any of the cheap US labs.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Izb
Copper and its alloys are covered by a thin uniform layer of corrosion products.
The covering by a film is the self-extinguishing process, as corrosion products protect the surface of the metal from interacting with the environment.
The process of formation of the film consists of two stages. First - the formation of primary film of the mixture of pure oxides and copper oxide. During second stages there is formation of the oxide layer - from several months to several years.

If this oxide layer will dissolve, the corrosion process never stops, slowing down in the new oil and speeding on the old (with acids) oil.

And it's enough dangerous passage of the radiator, right?

p.s. The same stories with a lot of Copper with Redline oils:
1) https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1787039&page=1
2) https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2891707&page=1
3) https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=247193&page=1
4) http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...true#Post983000


p.p.s. And what about a lot of lead?

5) http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...rue#Post2336886
6) https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2309193&page=1
7) https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=250550&page=1


Thanks for the dialog and links, though I think you linked the first page of this thread.

I'm not sure what you mean by "And it's enough dangerous passage of the radiator, right?" though. The oil cooler is a water-oil unit which exists as a sandwich adapter between the filter and the block. Does that answer the question you were trying to ask?
 
Originally Posted By: skyship
I must admit the Lead levels do look bad, but if folks don't then publish what happened when they switched to another oil it does not prove very much.


Lead is a problem? Have you forgotten your meds again? Or did you post in this thread by mistake?
grin.gif


1 ppm of lead is hardly anything to worry about. I've done a UOA on every oci ever in this car and 1 ppm of lead is the lowest I've ever seen. That despite this being the longest OCI ever for this car by 2,500+ miles. Lead is typically 2-3 ppm over ~3,500 mi.
 
If motor oil Redline dissolves copper oxides, can it contribute to a leak in the oil cooler places solder connections?
 
No disrespect here, but from an ROI standpoint, I don't think Redline is a good choice or at least a good choice for this vehicle. If I were paying as much as Redline costs, it better last longer than that.
 
Originally Posted By: BillyTheKid
No disrespect here, but from an ROI standpoint, I don't think Redline is a good choice or at least a good choice for this vehicle. If I were paying as much as Redline costs, it better last longer than that.

For an interval that doubled the manufacturers recommended OCI, I would say that it did fine.

-Dennis
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: bluesubie

For an interval that doubled the manufacturers recommended OCI, I would say that it did fine.

-Dennis




I look at it different. There's plenty easier accessible oils that are much cheaper that would go that far or further mileage wise. I am talking straight ROI compared to other oils.
 
Originally Posted By: BillyTheKid
Originally Posted By: bluesubie

For an interval that doubled the manufacturers recommended OCI, I would say that it did fine.

-Dennis




I look at it different. There's plenty easier accessible oils that are much cheaper that would go that far or further mileage wise. I am talking straight ROI compared to other oils.

If gpshumway was that concerned about saving a few dollars he would have purchased a naturally aspirated Impreza 2.0i to save money on fuel. His goal is probably avoiding a spun bearing and/or blown turbo and a $25 uoa is not going to give you much real insight in avoiding either scenario. Been there, done that.

I definitely disagree that there are "plenty" of easier accessible oils that would go this far or farther. Cross any RC oils off of your list and you end up with maybe a few and a couple are probably 40 weights.

-Dennis
 
I don't want to keep jacking the tread and will be my last comment. I agree a UOA isn't a do all end all, I'm a guy who likes to see a tear down if that is possible to really see things (but very rare it's done). I'm also not saying anyone should go the cheap oil route, I've used some extremely expensive oils myself in the past. I just feel and would be willing to bet some other oils would have help up as long or longer, that's all I'm saying. I've become more and more a fan of HDEO specificly in turbo apps and some other common brand oils that are on the shelf at a local WM.

I also think this board is full of over thinking regarding oils, and I'm as guilty as everyone else. I'm still waiting to see proof of an oil being the sole cause of an engine going bad.
 
Why is it that every thread in the UOA section seems to degrade to a shouting match about ROI?

Let it go already.
 
O.k. Let's see if I can clear up some things and tamp down some of the acrimony in this thread.

On costs:
I certainly didn't buy a WRX to squeeze every last quarter cent per mile of running cost out of it. I've got a Honda Civic for that, and even there I'm not wound that tight. My local Redline dealer cuts me a deal, so for me the cost difference to other high quality synthetics is substantially less than many here are supposing. The least value added expense in the whole process is the UOA itself, it costs much more than the difference between Redline and other quality oils. I do the UOAs primarily to satisfy my curiosity, it's a twisted kind of hobby. I rationalize the expense to myself by saying I might catch a real problem, like the high Si levels in my Civic.

On posting UOAs and their interpretation:
I share my UOAs primarily for the benefit of others, I do not need much if any help interpreting them. I also don't need a bunch of unsolicited advice on which oil I "should" be using. If I have specific questions I'll ask them in the first post. Comments and discussion are appreciated, but keep it civil and try not to project your priorities onto my choices or the choices of others. Many seem to think of UOA as an exercise in cost minimization, others think the primary benefit of synthetic oils is extended drain intervals. Neither assumptions are true for me. Extended drain intervals are only one reason to use synthetic oils, there are others and Redline fits into the "other" category.

On other oils being "better":
I've done a UOA on every OCI since the factory fill in this car, I've used GC and RT6 extensively and know exactly how the engine responds to them. Both perform very well, but I decided to experiment in order to satisfy my curiosity. RT6 is a bit thicker than optimal in Minnesota winters, and GC sometimes showed 15%+ shear and slightly low flashpoint in my application. Also, GC has been superseded by M1 0w40 as the preferred 0wXX HDEO, so my experimental choice was between the new SN formula of M1 0w40 and Redline.

When I decided to switch, the SN formula of M1 0w40 was still an unknown quantity and I was driving more, so the original plan was to go with Redline 5w30 for a ~6,000 mi OCI in the summer and Redline 0w30 for a similar length in the winter. It takes at least 3 OCIs of a new oil, especially one as atypical as Redline, to get good information, so I stuck with it and here we are. Knowing what I know today, I likely would have gone with M1 0w40, but at the time we didn't know if the SN formula of M1 0w40 would shear as badly as the old SM formula did (often thinner than GC!).

I see people recommending M1 0w40 as "better" for my cold weather than Redline 5w30. In very extreme cold this is true, but only to a small degree. At most temperatures Redline is actually the better choice, though the differences are always minimal.

Redline 5w30 has an MRV of 15,000 at -35*C and M1 0w40 is 31,000 at -40*C. Using the 5*C doubling rule, the oils are all but identical in pumpability. Mobil doesn't publish the CCS value for their 0w40, but it must be below 6,200 Cp at -35*C. Redline 5w30 is 6,000 at -30*C, so M1 holds the advantage in ease of starting at very cold temps. My car starts easily down to 0*F with RT6 in the sump, and I have both a block and a pan heater, so the ease of starting advantage of M1 0w40 is not that important to me. At temperatures above 0*C, the fact that Redline is a 10.6 cSt oil while M1 is a 13.5 cSt oil comes into play. M1 has a higher VI, but Redline is still thinner. Since even my winter OCI will include spring and fall temperatures of 15*C+, this is relevant.

In the end, the paper analysis indicates both oils are excellent and determining which one is better for a particular application would require a lot more UOA data than most are willing to collect. I decided to try Redline because of a lower tendency to reduce the octane of the intake charge, and it might offer some reduction in intake manifold deposits. These characteristics are owed to its low volatility, resistance to high temperatures, and additive package designed to preserve octane. My car sees occasional Autocross and track use and those characteristics have some value to me despite not showing up in a UOA.

Cheers-
 
gpshumway At temperatures above 0*C said:
Both M1 0W-40 and RL 5W-30 have the same HTHSV of 3.8cP but since M1 has a significantly higher 185 VI it is thinner than RL 5W-30 at all temp's below 150C. This is apparent to those that have tried these oils if you have an oil pressure gauge equipped vehicle as I have done.
The lower kinematic viscosity spec's of RL says more about how widely different the chemistry of the two oils are. RL contains no VIIs and the polyolester base oils have among the lowest viscosity-pressure coefficients .
 
Thanks for posting this.

Loved the treatise on "pure oxides" vs "copper oxides" from Cambridge University on page 2.
Cavendish Lab, no less
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom