I would love to try 2-3 treatments of that stuff.
But getting it to Canada can be a royal pain.
I used to drive to Ogdensburg to pick up stuff at myusaddress.
With cross border issues and covid its a total no go.
Red Line for Cleaning
- Thread starter Shel_B
- Start date
But getting it to Canada can be a royal pain.
I used to drive to Ogdensburg to pick up stuff at myusaddress.
With cross border issues and covid its a total no go.
Your signature says Mobil 1 Extended Performance.
If you've been using that, there's nothing in need of cleaning, and if there is something there, it's nothing that Redline will touch.
If your OCIs are really long, there could something to be concerned about, but I doubt it.
If you've been using that, there's nothing in need of cleaning, and if there is something there, it's nothing that Redline will touch.
If your OCIs are really long, there could something to be concerned about, but I doubt it.
I had an Olds that had a 260 CI engine that was really sludged inside. I had to spoon it out of the cyl heads. I put in 4 qts of Marvel mystery oil and one Qt of 50W and ran the engine at idle for about 15 minutes. Then I changed the filter and oil and did the same thing again. After that I ran El cheapo oil for about 300 miles. I pulled the valve covers and it was getting cleaner. Next I put in M1 10-30 and ran that for 3000 miles with a filter change at every 1000 miles. The last filter was almost void of any trash or sludge. That was at 50,000 miles and I had the car till 140,000 and never a problem later. The first 50,000 were on Castroil 10-30 GTX conventional oil. I'm sure some will say the engine was damaged doing this but I don't think so.
Redline cleaned and kept immaculate my old Honda F23a. I always looked at it as "I am spending $1080 per year on insurance and over a thousand dollars in fuel, what does it matter if two diy oil changes cost $60-70 each instead of $30?"
Could you get similar results with another synthetic brand? Possibly. Is Redline better? Maybe, but how would you measure it empirically?
Could you get similar results with another synthetic brand? Possibly. Is Redline better? Maybe, but how would you measure it empirically?
This may be of interest to some. I just spoke with Dave G. at Red Line. He said Red Line intentionally formulates their oils not to clean that well as they don't want to disrupt deposits that can come loose and cause more problems within the engine. I asked him if he thought the esters in Red Line contribute to a cleaning effect and he said no, they are not aggressive in that way.
So for all these years it has been assumed Red Line is cleaning when in fact it is not. Remember there are many different types of esters. I believe HPL chose theirs based on having high solvency.
Food for thought....
So for all these years it has been assumed Red Line is cleaning when in fact it is not. Remember there are many different types of esters. I believe HPL chose theirs based on having high solvency.
Food for thought....
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Deleted member 89374
Consider this: Dave G., known as the "spin-control guy" at Red Line, presents a compelling case. However, Red Line doesn't prioritize the formulation of cleaning oils, not out of concern for the customer, but because it's a cost-prohibitive endeavor. This can significantly dent their profit margin. Esters such as Lubricit DTDA, for instance, can cost over $10 per pound or even higher. These esters offer numerous benefits such as reducing friction, clearing varnish, enhancing additive solubility, and inducing seal swell. But they're notably absent from Red Line's roster. Not because they fear potential dislodgement of deposits, but primarily due to their high cost.
Contrastingly, @High Performance Lubricants, an industrial manufacturer, doesn't specifically cater to the consumer market. They're more focused on formulating automotive lubricants suitable for large fleets, where maintaining operational efficiency outweighs cost savings, as seen with federal agencies. To achieve successful long drain intervals, motor oil must effectively keep crud in suspension, making the lubricant's cleaning capability absolutely vital.
In essence, if you're aiming for bragging rights, you choose Red Line. If your concern is the longevity and performance of your vehicle, you opt for HPL. It really is as straightforward as that.
DTDA (Ditridecyl Adipate) is a diester and costs under $3/lb in bulk. Although it's been a while, when I sold to Red Line they focused on performance and bought some of our most expensive POEs. Don't know what they are doing today under different management.
What was their Chief chemist like? I have always enjoyed their oils and I've had really good luck with recently their CVT fluid as well. I follow a lot of Honda Acura racing and most of their teams have a sponsorship through Red line.
I mainly called on the owners. Their chemist at the time was ex-Lubrizol and seemed pretty sharp. We're going back many years.
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Deleted member 89374
I believe that would be Mr. Roy Howell.
Could you please provide the approximate cost of materials, excluding expenses related to research and development, testing, and other factors, needed to produce a quart of premium "boutique" motor oil? Specifically, I'm interested in the costs associated with formulations such as Mobil 1 EP 5W-30 or Mobil 1 FS 0W-40. Thank you for your expertise and insights!
I've been retired for 16 years so I am out of touch with the prices for PAO, ANs, and Group III base oils. I do some consulting on esters and so am familiar with some of their price ranges, which vary greatly with the chemistry and volume, but esters are a small part of premium boutique synthetic motor oils.
You could probably sell just about anything to the federal govt, first of all. Almost nothing is sold to the government based on actual performance. Second, I am sure every major could make an oil to meet whatever govt fleet vehicles require. It's a fleet of work vehicles, it's not supplying NASA. Finally, you bash Red Line with zero actual evidence. Yeah, we get it, you're an HPL and M1 fanboy. You're long on opinions and short on evidence.
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Deleted member 89374
While I appreciate your viewpoint, I must respectfully challenge some of your assertions. It's indeed a sweeping generalization to say that almost nothing is sold to the government based on actual performance. In fact, governmental procurement policies often require that products and services meet certain defined standards and specifications. Therefore, suggesting that all major oil companies could meet these requirements is somewhat dismissive of the complexity and rigorous testing often involved in this process.
I appreciate your opinion, but let me set the record straight. I think it's crucial to be clear that this isn't about favoring HPL or Mobil 1 (M1) over Red Line. In fact, my statements aren't based on brand loyalty, but rather on a fair analysis and interpretation of available data.
It's true that Red Line has earned its reputation in the high-performance automotive sector. Their products are well-regarded due to the utilization of Polyol Ester base stocks and high-performance additives. However, this doesn't exempt them, or any brand for that matter, from rigorous examination and critique. Constructive criticism allows the industry to evolve and consumers to make informed decisions.
When we talk about HPL and M1, they too have unique selling points. HPL's synthetic motor oils offer superior wear protection, and Mobil 1's advanced full synthetic motor oils help keep engines running optimally. These aren't merely opinions; they are claims backed by laboratory tests and real-world performance data.
But let's not get entangled in a war of brand favorites. What matters most is making well-informed decisions that best serve the needs of our vehicles and their specific operating conditions. It's not about being a fanboy of one brand or another, but about analyzing data objectively and critically.
Remember, a debate should be based on facts and evidence, not on who shouts the loudest. Let's focus on providing insightful and accurate information, not merely on winning an argument.
Thank you.
I agree with all that, but there's no data that's been presented. In fact, this entire industry appears to be nearly devoid of publicly available data, leaving nothing but a few standards and some marketing claims to base decisions on.
For example, you said:
This is pure conjecture unless you have some data to share. You might even be right, but that's a strong claim to make without results from some actual head-to-head testing. We're always reminded that VOAs, datasheets, endorsements, etc. cannot predict actual performance in an engine.
Here is a 30 minute interview with Roy Howell. I thought about posting this on its own. I may have already but couldn't find it.
Starts getting into it around 12:00.
*I thought this was the Q&A one but it's not. Not sure where that one is.
www.facebook.com
Starts getting into it around 12:00.
*I thought this was the Q&A one but it's not. Not sure where that one is.
Roy Howell. The chemist behind Red Line Synthetic Oil's products since 1986. | By Red Line Synthetic OilFacebook
Roy Howell. The chemist behind Red Line Synthetic Oil's products since 1986.
www.facebook.com
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chris said a good point,as a amateur observer of lubrication,why does the manufactures/blenders not publish more information on their products,though amsoil does mostly outdated comparison's,they have a good product with a loyal following,but not alot of true testing results,,schaeffers has seemingly nice technical sheets provided,some others as vavoline,mobil etc very little info that the common consumer , mechanic can understand or use ,thus leaving the point of assumption its a good product resting on its past reputation,the lubrication industry (engine oils) seems to have changed alot since dextos gen 3 came out and the ending of covid due to financial cut backs to possibly a lesser product??
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Deleted member 89374
The discussion centers around the topics of motor oils that also clean deposits. There is plenty of proof on this forum that Red Line motor oil does not clean varnish and other deposits, with @buster posting that Red Line in fact confirmed this fact.
On the other hand, there is plenty of proof on this forum that @High Performance Lubricants motor oils and other products, like their Engine Cleaner, in fact clean varnish and other deposits. Here is the latest proof, posted today: https://hplu.be/XOjuG.
I won't pretend to have the answers, but it's expensive and time consuming to do real wear testing. The standards do provide some of that, but of course the test results are private.
I doubt the products have gotten worse on the whole, though. Even if they are using cheaper components, the overall performance still must trend upward since none of the specs has gotten more permissive. Could there be a few cases here or there? Probably, but I would rather buy a 2023 oil than a 2013 oil.
The ability to clean varnish is just one of many performance parameters and arguably not even close to the most important. Also, random pics of oil filters is not proof of anything. Is it suggestive? Yes, but you need an actual controlled test with the same setup to make claims.
You didn't just say that Red Line doesn't clean like HPL, you said that Red Line is for bragging rights only. I don't use RL but I mean, this is hyperbole. I have no problem with being excited for HPL and the cleaning performance, but it feels like we are pretending to be data driven yet throwing out statements like that and pics of random cut open oil filters. This doesn't qualify as data in any real endeavor. Anyway we don't need to drag this out further but I just thought it was unfair to take a shot at them while still having zero evidence.
