Red Line: chemstry tweaks across the street range

[tudorart]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

Heck virtually all dino 5W-20 have a higher VI.

Yes because they're in fact VI boosted 5W-"10W" or 5W-16 multigrades. And you know this stuff.
I'm curious how would one do it then, if you didn't use dino or high VI Gr3/3+? It doesn't seem easy with classic synthetics to find smth lighter that doesn't qualify for 0W and where you'd have room within the grade to add viscosity index boosters to it.

You are a 20 heavy user. What's the highest VI for a PAO or ester based 5W20 that you know of?

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: tudorart
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

Heck virtually all dino 5W-20 have a higher VI.

Yes because they're in fact VI boosted 5W-"10W" or 5W-16 multigrades. And you know this stuff.
I'm curious how would one do it then, if you didn't use dino or high VI Gr3/3+? It doesn't seem easy with classic synthetics to find smth lighter that doesn't qualify for 0W and where you'd have room within the grade to add viscosity index boosters to it.

You are a 20 heavy user. What's the highest VI for a PAO or ester based 5W20 that you know of?

Here in North America where the 5W-20 grade is so common, it basically in most case is the same formulation as a 5W-30 but with less polymer VIs, hence the lower VI of the grade.

The highest base oil VIs are in the low 140 range.
ANs top out at 100, esters and light PAOs in the 130 range and GP III+ oils including GTL as high as 140 in some cases.
Very heavy PAOs can have VIs of over 200 and are sometimes used as VMs in place of or in addition to polymer VIs.

How you get the VIs of finished oils into the 160s and even low 170s without additional VIIs is because the dispersants used in the DI packages are often polymer based.

 

[tudorart]

I see, but wouldn't those polymer based detergents set you over 9.2cSt into 30 grade?
What's a "DI package"?

 

[dparm]

I still question if the 0w30 is really a 3.2 HTHS. I suspect it's closer to 3.5.

 

[tudorart]

Originally Posted By: tudorart
I see it.
All in all I think Red Line solved two problems here: flash on the 0W grades and HTHS being too high on the rest of the line up BUT intentionally lost the opportunity to offer a higher VI for the 0W-30 when they did it for the 0W20. Why? I could've understood a 3.5cP and over for that VI.

Maybe they wanted no VII at all.

Same thought here...

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: tudorart
I see, but wouldn't those polymer based detergents set you over 9.2cSt into 30 grade?
What's a "DI package"?

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/whats-in-your-motor-oil/

All oils, even true light 20wt oils are formulated with a thick DI package. The lightest 20wt oils use 4cSt base oils (not RL) but the finished oil will have a KV100 of nominally 8cSt.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: tudorart
Originally Posted By: tudorart
I see it.
All in all I think Red Line solved two problems here: flash on the 0W grades and HTHS being too high on the rest of the line up BUT intentionally lost the opportunity to offer a higher VI for the 0W-30 when they did it for the 0W20. Why? I could've understood a 3.5cP and over for that VI.

Maybe they wanted no VII at all.

Same thought here...

According to Dave at RL the old 0W-20 contained no additional VIIs but the new one does; why I have no idea.
All RL 0W oils are formulated with the same viscosity base oils but their new 0W-30 does use less VIIs than their 0W-20.
This again makes no sense to me.

As it stands, if you want a higher VI 0W-30 just blend their 0W-20 and 0W-40 together to make your own light or heavy 0W-30 with a VI higher than RLs own.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

All RL 0W oils are formulated with the same viscosity base oils but their new 0W-30 does use less VIIs than their 0W-20.
This again makes no sense to me.

As it stands, if you want a higher VI 0W-30 just blend their 0W-20 and 0W-40 together to make your own light or heavy 0W-30 with a VI higher than RLs own.


So you are saying that their 0w-xx oils are all a static POE base oil with a given VI and viscosity and they just use polymer to tailor the final viscosity, IE, 0w-20 or 0w-40? If so, that sketches me out a bit....... Because you are depending on polymer to give you your given grade, not the base oil......

My understanding from a previous discussion on this was that Mobil for example blended a couple of different visc/VI base oils together to make their 0w-40 and then used VII's to tailor the final product. Ultimately you ended up with a product that appeared to shear down a bit but then stabilize. When the VISOM version came out, the VISOM base oil was heavier than the PAO base they were using before, so there was less polymer used and the oil subsequently sheared a lot less. But of course it then also lost some of its exceptionality with respect to cold temperature performance too.

 

[CATERHAM]

I said they are formulated with the same viscosity base oils.
Yes they use a blend of light POE and PAO oils. That base oil blend apparently is the same for all three 0W grades.
Makes sense as all three grades have the same NOACK, PP and FP.

 

[tudorart]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

All RL 0W oils are formulated with the same viscosity base oils but their new 0W-30 does use less VIIs than their 0W-20.
This again makes no sense to me.

As it stands, if you want a higher VI 0W-30 just blend their 0W-20 and 0W-40 together to make your own light or heavy 0W-30 with a VI higher than RLs own.


So you are saying that their 0w-xx oils are all a static POE base oil with a given VI and viscosity and they just use polymer to tailor the final viscosity, IE, 0w-20 or 0w-40? If so, that sketches me out a bit....... Because you are depending on polymer to give you your given grade, not the base oil......

My understanding from a previous discussion on this was that Mobil for example blended a couple of different visc/VI base oils together to make their 0w-40 and then used VII's to tailor the final product. Ultimately you ended up with a product that appeared to shear down a bit but then stabilize. When the VISOM version came out, the VISOM base oil was heavier than the PAO base they were using before, so there was less polymer used and the oil subsequently sheared a lot less. But of course it then also lost some of its exceptionality with respect to cold temperature performance too.

I am sure Dave meant that they use the same base oils for all 0W grades but in different quantities. Common practice and seen it recommended by Exxon for their stock buyers. You can basically get many grades by combining them differently.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: tudorart

I am sure Dave meant that they use the same base oils for all 0W grades but in different quantities. Common practice and seen it recommended by Exxon for their stock buyers. You can basically get many grades by combining them differently.


If that's the case, then it goes against what CATERHAM is saying (and is far more in-line with what makes sense, IMHO, as per my reference to how Mobil does it):

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
That base oil blend apparently is the same for all three 0W grades.
Makes sense as all three grades have the same NOACK, PP and FP.

 

[tudorart]

"All RL 0W oils are formulated with the same viscosity base oils" I read same type (eg.ester, pao) and same viscosity (eg.pao4/4cSt/6cSt etc)

They would've had the same CCS not only Pour Point.
Apparently all these stocks of different Viscosities and VI have the same Noack, PP and FP. I'm not denying that.

I can understand going for more VI and VII in the 0W20 since clearly that's highly desirable in hybrids and stop and go systems and in general for 0W20 japanese applications that use high VI oils. I was thinking about what new/future applications would require a low VI and VII 0W30 like that. It must be the reason for changing a good working product.

 

[boxcartommie22]

as i said earlier,dave told me poe's the same with a very small amt of pao has not changed!!! not to worry

 

[boxcartommie22]

here are densities i asked dave to email me.
5w30=0.888
5w20=0.890

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
So you are saying that their 0w-xx oils are all a static POE base oil with a given VI and viscosity and they just use polymer to tailor the final viscosity, IE, 0w-20 or 0w-40? If so, that sketches me out a bit....... Because you are depending on polymer to give you your given grade, not the base oil......


Originally Posted By: Dave@Redline
Thank you for contacting Red Line Oil. The 0W-40 starts with a higher molecular weight base stock blend than the 0W-20.

The base stock type and additive concentration is the same between the 0Wx oils, the thickener necessary is different.

Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil


There's more going on in the RL's 0W line than varying amounts of VII. I.E. base oil blend differences.

 

[tudorart]

The two mid-SAPS are out:
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=144&pcid=21
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=142&pcid=21

Dual Clutch fluids show up on MTF and ATF MSDS. Probably one for wet and one for dry types.

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: tudorart
The two mid-SAPS are out:
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=144&pcid=21
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=142&pcid=21

Dual Clutch fluids show up on MTF and ATF MSDS. Probably one for wet and one for dry types.



The Euro 5w40's VI is 177 and the 5w30 is 164. Neither are what I would call "amazing". I suspect the 5w30 is VII-free, as their regular 5w30 is.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: tudorart
The two mid-SAPS are out:
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=144&pcid=21
http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=142&pcid=21



They are calling these oils 5w30 Euro and 5w40 Euro.

From the Red Line website:
-Recommended for ACEA C3, VW AUDI 504.00/507.00, BMW Longlife-04, Porsche C30, GM dexos2™ and MB 229.31/229.51.
-Designed for the extended drain intervals and fuel economy of the latest European gasoline and diesel engines, including VW TDI models and BMW 3-series diesels.
-Includes the appropriate levels of anti-wear additives and low ash content to ensure compatibility with the latest diesel particulate filters and emissions equipment.
-Ester based, an upgrade over base stocks over other motor oils for these vehicles that provides additional protection against wear and instability at high temps.

So will these oils have longer drain capability than their street oils? (I wish Red Line would post the TBN's on their website.) That part of it could be good, as I have been disappointed in the long drain ability of RL 5w30.

On the other hand, Red Line is saying that these Euro oils have the appropriate levels of anti-wear additives for emissions system protection. Less zddp? Perhaps they're substituting some other antiwear additive to make up the difference? Who's going to be the first to invest in a VOA to find out?

 

[dparm]

Hey, I already paid for the Castrol Edge 0w40 VOA. Someone else can pay for the Red Line one. :-D

 

[CATERHAM]

I suspect no or little moly like their regular dual rated (for diesels) 5W-40.
The viscosity characteristics are much the same as their non-Euro grades so I suspect less AW additives and as mentioned more Ca for a higher TBN.
But I don't think it's necessary to wait for a VOA, simply email Dave and I'm sure he'll spell out the differences. Personally I have no use for a mid-SAPS longer drain oil.

Now if RL came out with a high VI 0W-16 grade I'd be first in line to try it! Their new 0W-20 is a disappointment, it's good oil but it's a hare's breath from being a 30wt. They do not offer a bonafide 20wt.