Ravenol Excessive For My Needs?

[OVERKILL]

Blau parts is the only vendor of Ravenol here in North America. It's not cheap but if you sign up for their newsletter or follow their social media, they do have sales.

https://www.blauparts.com/ravenol-catalog.html

Yep, that's where I've bought most of mine, though the first batch I got on Amazon.

 

[SlavaB]

I notice that some Americans are offended by higher grade, more expensive products. You can tell by the type of cars (primitive, coarse buckets) American manufacturers produced until very recently. Same with some restaurants, where huge portion of mediocre, unpalatable food at a great-deal-price s preferable to a smaller portion of real stuff.

When are you taking off? Keep ranting about America but staying in Cali. What’s wrong, all the airlines sold out?

 

[michael007]

When are you taking off? Keep ranting about America but staying in Cali. What’s wrong, all the airlines sold out?

What vivaukraine said wasn't nice because it was all offensive but what I think he meant to say was that if 100% PAO based oils were offered in the United States, it would be a niche market limited mostly to BITOGers.

As far as I'm aware, none of the manufactures in the United States produce any engine oils advertised as 100% PAO. Ravenol is the only option.

If we visit Liqui Moly's German website, there's an option to filter by type of oil and if we select vollsynthetisch, we see 18 different offerings.

So in Europe, Liqui Moly thinks there's an interest for 100% PAO based oils but not in North America.

So why do none of the manufacturers bother with 100% PAO?

Liqui moly's German blog gives some answers (translated):

Should I take a PAO oil or an HC oil?

Oliver Kuhn: Often there is no such choice. Almost all oil development nowadays takes place on the basis of HC oils. Many oil specifications can only be met with HC oils.

If the specification is correct, does it not matter whether it is a PAO oil or an HC oil?

Oliver Kuhn: Right. In any case, the additive packages are becoming increasingly important. Today they are the most important component of an engine oil alongside the oil itself. It is they who provide a large part of the engine oil's performance. With some very modern engine oils, the actual oil is little more than just the carrier fluid for the additive packages.

Then why are there always discussions about which synthetic oil is better?

Oliver Kuhn: That is an echo from the past. When the first HC oils appeared 30 years ago, the quality difference to PAO oils was even greater. But that was a long time ago. No expert would have such a discussion these days.

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So what do we have here in North America? Mobil 1 may have some PAO in some formulas, Pennzoil which uses GTL... etc

We see from the wear numbers in our UOA's that these oils are all great but lately, we also see things like fuel dilution which would stop us from taking advantage of some of the benefits of 100% PAO.

In my opinion, yes 100% PAO oils have clear benefits but most North Americans would not be willing to pay a high premium for these benefits when HC oils meet the specifications. Manufactures seem to agree based on the products offered.

One of the arguments I read is that the price difference wouldn't be much if PAO was sold in bulk.

Here's a post from a former Pennzoil insider discussing why it's tough to upsell PUP versus PP, even though the wholesale price difference is minimal.

I think 100% PAO oils would present the same problem.

 

[edyvw]

What vivaukraine said wasn't nice because it was all offensive but what I think he meant to say was that if 100% PAO based oils were offered in the United States, it would be a niche market limited mostly to BITOGers.

As far as I'm aware, none of the manufactures in the United States produce any engine oils advertised as 100% PAO. Ravenol is the only option.

If we visit Liqui Moly's German website, there's an option to filter by type of oil and if we select vollsynthetisch, we see 18 different offerings.

So in Europe, Liqui Moly thinks there's an interest for 100% PAO based oils but not in North America.

So why do none of the manufacturers bother with 100% PAO?

Liqui moly's German blog gives some answers (translated):

Should I take a PAO oil or an HC oil?

Oliver Kuhn: Often there is no such choice. Almost all oil development nowadays takes place on the basis of HC oils. Many oil specifications can only be met with HC oils.

If the specification is correct, does it not matter whether it is a PAO oil or an HC oil?

Oliver Kuhn: Right. In any case, the additive packages are becoming increasingly important. Today they are the most important component of an engine oil alongside the oil itself. It is they who provide a large part of the engine oil's performance. With some very modern engine oils, the actual oil is little more than just the carrier fluid for the additive packages.

Then why are there always discussions about which synthetic oil is better?

Oliver Kuhn: That is an echo from the past. When the first HC oils appeared 30 years ago, the quality difference to PAO oils was even greater. But that was a long time ago. No expert would have such a discussion these days.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So what do we have here in North America? Mobil 1 may have some PAO in some formulas, Pennzoil which uses GTL... etc

We see from the wear numbers in our UOA's that these oils are all great but lately, we also see things like fuel dilution which would stop us from taking advantage of some of the benefits of 100% PAO.

In my opinion, yes 100% PAO oils have clear benefits but most North Americans would not be willing to pay a high premium for these benefits when HC oils meet the specifications. Manufactures seem to agree based on the products offered.

One of the arguments I read is that the price difference wouldn't be much if PAO was sold in bulk.

Here's a post from a former Pennzoil insider discussing why it's tough to upsell PUP versus PP, even though the wholesale price difference is minimal.

I think 100% PAO oils would present the same problem.

Which oil is 100% PAO?
Also, Liqui Moly in 90's was selling HC oils as best thing after sliced bread. So Kuhn is saying: yeah we were scamming you back then, but now we are not

 

[michael007]

Which oil is 100% PAO?
Also, Liqui Moly in 90's was selling HC oils as best thing after sliced bread. So Kuhn is saying: yeah we were scamming you back then, but now we are not

100% PAO base I meant. I would think all formulas have additives.

Here's a list of liqui moly's offerings with 100% PAO base but I don't think any of them are offered here in North America. You'd have to order from a website like handler.lv who ships to North America.

https://shop.liqui-moly.de/motoroele.html?oil_type=30&p=1

 

[blingo]

Check the safety data sheets linked from there, something like 1-decen... in there means PAO. You'll see 20-40% or so in those oils. Your american Lucas Synthetic can have 70%, says the forum ;-)

 

[edyvw]

100% PAO base I meant. I would think all formulas have additives.

Here's a list of liqui moly's offerings with 100% PAO base but I don't think any of them are offered here in North America. You'd have to order from a website like handler.lv who ships to North America.

https://shop.liqui-moly.de/motoroele.html?oil_type=30&p=1

They are NOT 100% PAO! In Germany to have full synthetic designation oil has to have 50% Group IV and V.
SDS states in 0W30 20-40%. However, that does not mean there is no more PAO or Esters as SDS does not provide full picture. But base stock is definitely not 100% PAO. There has to be other base stocks to control oxidation etc.

 

[edyvw]

Check the safety data sheets linked from there, something like 1-decen... in there means PAO. You'll see 20-40% or so in those oils. Your american Lucas Synthetic can have 70%, says the forum ;-)

SDS will not provide full picture still. SDS is there just to say what are harmful ingredients. It could have some other base stocks to make it above 50%, but it is by no mean 100%.

 

[blingo]

He wasn't interested in anything but PAO, I had looked at the same 0W-30 and seen the same range the same way. Let's move him to the more interesting Lucas. That one I guess had at least 50% in the sheet.

 

[edyvw]

He wasn't interested in anything but PAO, I had looked at the same 0W-30 and seen the same range the same way. Let's move him to the more interesting Lucas. That one I guess had at least 50% in the sheet.

LOL. Lucas is garbage, regardless of PAO content.

 

[michael007]

They are NOT 100% PAO! In Germany to have full synthetic designation oil has to have 50% Group IV and V.
SDS states in 0W30 20-40%. However, that does not mean there is no more PAO or Esters as SDS does not provide full picture. But base stock is definitely not 100% PAO. There has to be other base stocks to control oxidation etc.

Do you have any links that talk about the requirements for the full synthetic designation in Germany?

I thought the vollsynthetisch (full synthetic) designation meant 100% PAO base but it looks like I was wrong.

This post from 2016 says:
As far as I understand, there was a legal dispute between two oil manufacturers here in Germany a long time ago. This ended with the fact that the term "fully synthetic" may only be used for motor oil if the product contains at least 80% Group IV PAO or Group V ester oil.

 

[blingo]

I hardly ever trust your judgement, at least neither regarding HC and PAO, nor regarding Castrol or Lucas ;-)

 

[edyvw]

Do you have any links that talk about the requirements for the full synthetic designation in Germany?

I thought the vollsynthetisch (full synthetic) designation meant 100% PAO base but it looks like I was wrong.

This post from 2016 says:
As far as I understand, there was a legal dispute between two oil manufacturers here in Germany a long time ago. This ended with the fact that the term "fully synthetic" may only be used for motor oil if the product contains at least 80% Group IV PAO or Group V ester oil.

I do not have currently link.
Again, oil with 100% PAO would not meet any manufacturers approvals.
Even with PAO at 40-60%, for example that Liqui Moly 0W40 looks pretty unremarkable compared to M1 0W40 or Castrol 0W40.

 

[edyvw]

I hardly ever trust your judgement, at least neither regarding HC and PAO, nor regarding Castrol or Lucas ;-)

It doe snot translate well. What you gonna do.

 

[michael007]

I do not have currently link.
Again, oil with 100% PAO would not meet any manufacturers approvals.
Even with PAO at 40-60%, for example that Liqui Moly 0W40 looks pretty unremarkable compared to M1 0W40 or Castrol 0W40.

After researching, ChristianReske answered this a while back:
"The law here in Germany is still the same: If a oil is labeled "Vollsynthetisch" in Germany, 80% of it must be PAO / Ester. Group IV / V."

If we google 80% Vollsynthetisch, we'll see the statement is accurate.

So that 0w40 should have 80% PAO / Ester.

The fact that it looks unremarkable compared to M1 on paper kind of justifies why we don't bother with the Vollsynthetisch designation or with production of bases with 100% group IV / V oils in North America.

Here on BITOG, we know what's on paper isn't always representative of what we'll see in the real world since everyone drives in different environments with different engines.

 

[edyvw]

After researching, ChristianReske answered this a while back:
"The law here in Germany is still the same: If a oil is labeled "Vollsynthetisch" in Germany, 80% of it must be PAO / Ester. Group IV / V."

If we google 80% Vollsynthetisch, we'll see the statement is accurate.

So that 0w40 should have 80% PAO / Ester.

The fact that it looks unremarkable compared to M1 on paper kind of justifies why we don't bother with the Vollsynthetisch designation or with production of bases with 100% group IV / V oils in North America.

Here on BITOG, we know what's on paper isn't always representative of what we'll see in the real world since everyone drives in different environments with different engines.

That is statement, not proof.

 

[OVERKILL]

100% PAO base I meant. I would think all formulas have additives.

Here's a list of liqui moly's offerings with 100% PAO base but I don't think any of them are offered here in North America. You'd have to order from a website like handler.lv who ships to North America.

https://shop.liqui-moly.de/motoroele.html?oil_type=30&p=1

It definitely can't be 100% PAO based, it would destroy seals in short order. These oils are majority PAO based, balanced with other bases to counteract those effects, like POE for example. M1 EP 0w-20 would be similar, at up to 70% PAO, it would likely fall under the full synthetic German category, but the remainder of its base oil blend is a mystery.

 

[michael007]

It definitely can't be 100% PAO based, it would destroy seals in short order. These oils are majority PAO based, balanced with other bases to counteract those effects, like POE for example. M1 EP 0w-20 would be similar, at up to 70% PAO, it would likely fall under the full synthetic German category, but the remainder of its base oil blend is a mystery.

When I said 100% PAO base, I meant to say that the base is 100% group IV/V. French was my first language so I wasn't being very clear, sorry.

from what I understand, oil formulas are composed of 70-80% base and 20-30% additives so if M1 EP 0w20 is 70% PAO - it would be close to what Ravenol is selling and what Liqui Moly is selling in Europe under the full synthetic designation.

I'm sure many here would love to see a greater selection of 70-80% group IV/V oils like Ravenol offers so the big question is - will people pay a premium for it in North America?

If HC oils can be as good as M1 EP when it comes to UOAs, maybe the answer is no.

 

[edyvw]

When I said 100% PAO base, I meant to say that the base is 100% group IV/V. French was my first language so I wasn't being very clear, sorry.

from what I understand, oil formulas are composed of 70-80% base and 20-30% additives so if M1 EP 0w20 is 70% PAO - it would be close to what Ravenol is selling and what Liqui Moly is selling in Europe under the full synthetic designation.

I'm sure many here would love to see a greater selection of 70-80% group IV/V oils like Ravenol offers so the big question is - will people pay a premium for it in North America?

If HC oils can be as good as M1 EP when it comes to UOAs, maybe the answer is no.

I cannot imagine any of these oils not having HC base stock. HC stock is good for certain performance aspects.
You mentioned Mobil1. Mobil1 as other companies have their own way of doing business. Mobil1 is biggest supplier of PAO in the world. Maybe it makes financial sense for them to use PAO and not other base stocks.
But, also, Mobil1 for example uses HC base stock in Delvac extreme oils, which see harsher conditions than M1 0W20 EP will. Everything depends also on application, what is desired end result, logistics, etc. It is not quite simple as: PAO=Good, HC=Bad. There is more to it.

 

[OVERKILL]

When I said 100% PAO base, I meant to say that the base is 100% group IV/V. French was my first language so I wasn't being very clear, sorry.

from what I understand, oil formulas are composed of 70-80% base and 20-30% additives so if M1 EP 0w20 is 70% PAO - it would be close to what Ravenol is selling and what Liqui Moly is selling in Europe under the full synthetic designation.

I'm sure many here would love to see a greater selection of 70-80% group IV/V oils like Ravenol offers so the big question is - will people pay a premium for it in North America?

If HC oils can be as good as M1 EP when it comes to UOAs, maybe the answer is no.

The advantage of M1 EP is of course the extended drain capability, something that HC oils may struggle with. Oxidation resistance is a department PAO excels at (along with cold temperature performance) so it's whether the advantages of PAO can be taken advantage of, or make sense in the product, that really determines its worth.

To be more succinct: PAO has a certain set of advantages over other bases. These advantages are offset by its poor solubility and the fact that it is hard on seals. This makes blending with PAO expensive, as you have to counteract those effects by balancing it with something else, which may be a lower group base and/or POE. So, those advantages need to be relevant to the application.