Ram Ecodiesel Emission Equipment
- Thread starter outoforder
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It depends which type of EGR you are talking about. Most just need cleaning about every 50K miles, although I've never had to clean mine yet after 100K miles because it gets burnt clean on the autobahn. You get a lot more problems with an older DPF system than an EGR.
I've not heard anyone complain of an EGR causing an engine failure, although most cars have ones that are not in the cooling system, although I'm not sure what the latest vehicles are fitted with.
Cleaning the intake is easy on most diesels and if you find it is clean already, often the EGR is still OK. If they start to block you will notice a lag when booted and in a bad case it results in a check engine light on some vehicles.
I've not heard anyone complain of an EGR causing an engine failure, although most cars have ones that are not in the cooling system, although I'm not sure what the latest vehicles are fitted with.
Cleaning the intake is easy on most diesels and if you find it is clean already, often the EGR is still OK. If they start to block you will notice a lag when booted and in a bad case it results in a check engine light on some vehicles.
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Originally Posted By: outoforder
Considering getting a Ram 1500 with an eco diesel but have some concerns about all the new emissions equipment (who doesn't). I am not a fan of EGRs and I know the DPF will eventually become clogged. I'm curious if it is possible to delete the DPF & EGR while keeping the the SCR. As long as the DEF fluid doesn't crystalize, the SCR seems like a much better way to reduce NOx emissions vs feeding the engine it's own exhaust [censored]. Thoughts?
Just get the Hemi with the 8 speed, it is far more capable and doesnt inherently breathe in its own vomit. If you do any serious towing get helper bags.
Considering getting a Ram 1500 with an eco diesel but have some concerns about all the new emissions equipment (who doesn't). I am not a fan of EGRs and I know the DPF will eventually become clogged. I'm curious if it is possible to delete the DPF & EGR while keeping the the SCR. As long as the DEF fluid doesn't crystalize, the SCR seems like a much better way to reduce NOx emissions vs feeding the engine it's own exhaust [censored]. Thoughts?
Just get the Hemi with the 8 speed, it is far more capable and doesnt inherently breathe in its own vomit. If you do any serious towing get helper bags.
Eliminating EGR does reduce the amount of particulate matter that is produced in diesel exhaust.
Eliminating EGR can improve efficiency in a diesel engine.
Eliminating EGR can improve power in a diesel engine (if EGR is employed under heavy load)
Eliminating EGR can improve efficiency in a diesel engine.
Eliminating EGR can improve power in a diesel engine (if EGR is employed under heavy load)
Never head that the EGR makes any difference to the exhaust apart from NOx issues.
The cost in fuel terms is about 2%, which is not much to pay for better air quality as NOx is one of the worst pollutants around.
You can only get more power by changing the ECU MAP, which can be expensive and might cost more in insurance premium terms. The difference is about 3% max for most cars, so you will not notice the difference.
I don't know of any insurance company that will approve removing emissions gear for non track use, although owners that don't care about the pollution their vehicle causes often don't care if their insurance is valid or not.
The cost in fuel terms is about 2%, which is not much to pay for better air quality as NOx is one of the worst pollutants around.
You can only get more power by changing the ECU MAP, which can be expensive and might cost more in insurance premium terms. The difference is about 3% max for most cars, so you will not notice the difference.
I don't know of any insurance company that will approve removing emissions gear for non track use, although owners that don't care about the pollution their vehicle causes often don't care if their insurance is valid or not.
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Stateside, I'm unaware of insurance companies caring about emissions equipment. Many states and/or counties don't care either. However, some states (and in the remaining states, only select counties) do care about emissions equipment; tamper with the equipment and/or have a fault in it, and one may not be able to register the vehicle.
On the Federal level it's illegal to tamper with, but I'm unaware of the Feds going after individuals. I wouldn't be surprised if California has gone after manufacturers of equipment, maybe other states have (maybe say for selling used catalytic convertors).
Not sure how many states allow one to drive without insurance, but NH is one of them. I think you have to show proof of insurance at registration time in those other states? Been too long since I lived in Maine to remember now.
On the Federal level it's illegal to tamper with, but I'm unaware of the Feds going after individuals. I wouldn't be surprised if California has gone after manufacturers of equipment, maybe other states have (maybe say for selling used catalytic convertors).
Not sure how many states allow one to drive without insurance, but NH is one of them. I think you have to show proof of insurance at registration time in those other states? Been too long since I lived in Maine to remember now.
EGR reduces NOx, that is correct. It does that by lowering the temperature of the combustion event. NOx is formed during very high combustion temperatures (which are ideal for lowering Particulate). It also makes the combustion event less efficient (complete) and increases the amount of particulate matter that is produced.
EGR functions in two ways to reduce the combustion event temperature. FIrst is displaces oxygen, making it harder for the vaporized fuel molecules to find an oxygen atom and combust. It slows the reaction in other words. Without the EGR, and just air in the combustion chamber, the reaction is much faster, and therefore creates higher temperatures (which creates NOx, but lowers particulate).
The second way EGr functions is by raising the thermal inertia of the system. The specific heat of exhaust gas is higher than that of normal air. That means it takes more energy to raise the temperature of exhaust gas than it does normal air. This means we have a lower peak temperature at the end of combustion...which also means a lower overall average pressure, and less torque that is produced from that given amount of fuel.
NOx and particulate have a direct inversely proportional relationship. There are several key "tuning" attributes to a diesel engine (timing, EGR, intake temp, combustion ratio, etc.) These tuning opportunities always have a trade-off. If you try to increase combustion efficiency and temperature, you increase NOx production. If you lower combustion temps and try to reduce NOx, you almost always increase particulate matter and lower overall efficiency. Remember, this is not a spark ignited engine where EGR can actually increase low power efficiency.
EGR functions in two ways to reduce the combustion event temperature. FIrst is displaces oxygen, making it harder for the vaporized fuel molecules to find an oxygen atom and combust. It slows the reaction in other words. Without the EGR, and just air in the combustion chamber, the reaction is much faster, and therefore creates higher temperatures (which creates NOx, but lowers particulate).
The second way EGr functions is by raising the thermal inertia of the system. The specific heat of exhaust gas is higher than that of normal air. That means it takes more energy to raise the temperature of exhaust gas than it does normal air. This means we have a lower peak temperature at the end of combustion...which also means a lower overall average pressure, and less torque that is produced from that given amount of fuel.
NOx and particulate have a direct inversely proportional relationship. There are several key "tuning" attributes to a diesel engine (timing, EGR, intake temp, combustion ratio, etc.) These tuning opportunities always have a trade-off. If you try to increase combustion efficiency and temperature, you increase NOx production. If you lower combustion temps and try to reduce NOx, you almost always increase particulate matter and lower overall efficiency. Remember, this is not a spark ignited engine where EGR can actually increase low power efficiency.
Originally Posted By: DriveHard
EGR reduces NOx, that is correct. It does that by lowering the temperature of the combustion event. NOx is formed during very high combustion temperatures (which are ideal for lowering Particulate). It also makes the combustion event less efficient (complete) and increases the amount of particulate matter that is produced.
EGR functions in two ways to reduce the combustion event temperature. FIrst is displaces oxygen, making it harder for the vaporized fuel molecules to find an oxygen atom and combust. It slows the reaction in other words. Without the EGR, and just air in the combustion chamber, the reaction is much faster, and therefore creates higher temperatures (which creates NOx, but lowers particulate).
The second way EGr functions is by raising the thermal inertia of the system. The specific heat of exhaust gas is higher than that of normal air. That means it takes more energy to raise the temperature of exhaust gas than it does normal air. This means we have a lower peak temperature at the end of combustion...which also means a lower overall average pressure, and less torque that is produced from that given amount of fuel.
NOx and particulate have a direct inversely proportional relationship. There are several key "tuning" attributes to a diesel engine (timing, EGR, intake temp, combustion ratio, etc.) These tuning opportunities always have a trade-off. If you try to increase combustion efficiency and temperature, you increase NOx production. If you lower combustion temps and try to reduce NOx, you almost always increase particulate matter and lower overall efficiency. Remember, this is not a spark ignited engine where EGR can actually increase low power efficiency.
Ok, tell me if I'm understanding this correctly: by disabling the EGR, I decrease the amount of soot generate by the engine which will cause less DPF regeneration and possibly prolong the lifespan of the DPF. Without an EGR, how well would the SCR handle the NOx emissions? Would it just consume more DEF since there would be more NOx in the exhaust stream?
EGR reduces NOx, that is correct. It does that by lowering the temperature of the combustion event. NOx is formed during very high combustion temperatures (which are ideal for lowering Particulate). It also makes the combustion event less efficient (complete) and increases the amount of particulate matter that is produced.
EGR functions in two ways to reduce the combustion event temperature. FIrst is displaces oxygen, making it harder for the vaporized fuel molecules to find an oxygen atom and combust. It slows the reaction in other words. Without the EGR, and just air in the combustion chamber, the reaction is much faster, and therefore creates higher temperatures (which creates NOx, but lowers particulate).
The second way EGr functions is by raising the thermal inertia of the system. The specific heat of exhaust gas is higher than that of normal air. That means it takes more energy to raise the temperature of exhaust gas than it does normal air. This means we have a lower peak temperature at the end of combustion...which also means a lower overall average pressure, and less torque that is produced from that given amount of fuel.
NOx and particulate have a direct inversely proportional relationship. There are several key "tuning" attributes to a diesel engine (timing, EGR, intake temp, combustion ratio, etc.) These tuning opportunities always have a trade-off. If you try to increase combustion efficiency and temperature, you increase NOx production. If you lower combustion temps and try to reduce NOx, you almost always increase particulate matter and lower overall efficiency. Remember, this is not a spark ignited engine where EGR can actually increase low power efficiency.
Ok, tell me if I'm understanding this correctly: by disabling the EGR, I decrease the amount of soot generate by the engine which will cause less DPF regeneration and possibly prolong the lifespan of the DPF. Without an EGR, how well would the SCR handle the NOx emissions? Would it just consume more DEF since there would be more NOx in the exhaust stream?
Originally Posted By: outoforder
Originally Posted By: DriveHard
EGR reduces NOx, that is correct. It does that by lowering the temperature of the combustion event. NOx is formed during very high combustion temperatures (which are ideal for lowering Particulate). It also makes the combustion event less efficient (complete) and increases the amount of particulate matter that is produced.
EGR functions in two ways to reduce the combustion event temperature. FIrst is displaces oxygen, making it harder for the vaporized fuel molecules to find an oxygen atom and combust. It slows the reaction in other words. Without the EGR, and just air in the combustion chamber, the reaction is much faster, and therefore creates higher temperatures (which creates NOx, but lowers particulate).
The second way EGr functions is by raising the thermal inertia of the system. The specific heat of exhaust gas is higher than that of normal air. That means it takes more energy to raise the temperature of exhaust gas than it does normal air. This means we have a lower peak temperature at the end of combustion...which also means a lower overall average pressure, and less torque that is produced from that given amount of fuel.
NOx and particulate have a direct inversely proportional relationship. There are several key "tuning" attributes to a diesel engine (timing, EGR, intake temp, combustion ratio, etc.) These tuning opportunities always have a trade-off. If you try to increase combustion efficiency and temperature, you increase NOx production. If you lower combustion temps and try to reduce NOx, you almost always increase particulate matter and lower overall efficiency. Remember, this is not a spark ignited engine where EGR can actually increase low power efficiency.
Ok, tell me if I'm understanding this correctly: by disabling the EGR, I decrease the amount of soot generate by the engine which will cause less DPF regeneration and possibly prolong the lifespan of the DPF. Without an EGR, how well would the SCR handle the NOx emissions? Would it just consume more DEF since there would be more NOx in the exhaust stream?
Because I did not design the control system for your particular application I can't say for certain how the system will respond. What may happen is that the system will throw an error and go into some sort of emissions limp mode...but really it is just a guess. You can be certain if you just disable EGR without some sort of reflash or new ECU, the computer is going to know it, and not be happy. It could "pull timing" or move the injection to later in the cycle, which can also reduce temperatures, and decrease NOx and increase particulate in an effort to offset the lack of EGR.
If the system were to react like you are describing, then yes, your logic holds true. If everything else remains the same, and you disable EGR, and the computer does not try to compensate, then your engine should produce less particulate and more NOx. The regen function of the particulate filter (PF) is usually based around a delta pressure across the filter...so less build up means less regen functions which means longer life. More NOx in the exhaust would for sure use more def fluid in the SCR system. That system relies on Urea (ammonia) to complete the reaction to break down the NOx. This may also mean a shorter lifespan of your ammonia slip catalyst (final step in SCR) as it is trying to deal with all the added ammonia that it was not originally made to handle...but I don't know that for certain.
Originally Posted By: DriveHard
EGR reduces NOx, that is correct. It does that by lowering the temperature of the combustion event. NOx is formed during very high combustion temperatures (which are ideal for lowering Particulate). It also makes the combustion event less efficient (complete) and increases the amount of particulate matter that is produced.
EGR functions in two ways to reduce the combustion event temperature. FIrst is displaces oxygen, making it harder for the vaporized fuel molecules to find an oxygen atom and combust. It slows the reaction in other words. Without the EGR, and just air in the combustion chamber, the reaction is much faster, and therefore creates higher temperatures (which creates NOx, but lowers particulate).
The second way EGr functions is by raising the thermal inertia of the system. The specific heat of exhaust gas is higher than that of normal air. That means it takes more energy to raise the temperature of exhaust gas than it does normal air. This means we have a lower peak temperature at the end of combustion...which also means a lower overall average pressure, and less torque that is produced from that given amount of fuel.
NOx and particulate have a direct inversely proportional relationship. There are several key "tuning" attributes to a diesel engine (timing, EGR, intake temp, combustion ratio, etc.) These tuning opportunities always have a trade-off. If you try to increase combustion efficiency and temperature, you increase NOx production. If you lower combustion temps and try to reduce NOx, you almost always increase particulate matter and lower overall efficiency. Remember, this is not a spark ignited engine where EGR can actually increase low power efficiency.
Ok, tell me if I'm understanding this correctly: by disabling the EGR, I decrease the amount of soot generate by the engine which will cause less DPF regeneration and possibly prolong the lifespan of the DPF. Without an EGR, how well would the SCR handle the NOx emissions? Would it just consume more DEF since there would be more NOx in the exhaust stream?
Because I did not design the control system for your particular application I can't say for certain how the system will respond. What may happen is that the system will throw an error and go into some sort of emissions limp mode...but really it is just a guess. You can be certain if you just disable EGR without some sort of reflash or new ECU, the computer is going to know it, and not be happy. It could "pull timing" or move the injection to later in the cycle, which can also reduce temperatures, and decrease NOx and increase particulate in an effort to offset the lack of EGR.
If the system were to react like you are describing, then yes, your logic holds true. If everything else remains the same, and you disable EGR, and the computer does not try to compensate, then your engine should produce less particulate and more NOx. The regen function of the particulate filter (PF) is usually based around a delta pressure across the filter...so less build up means less regen functions which means longer life. More NOx in the exhaust would for sure use more def fluid in the SCR system. That system relies on Urea (ammonia) to complete the reaction to break down the NOx. This may also mean a shorter lifespan of your ammonia slip catalyst (final step in SCR) as it is trying to deal with all the added ammonia that it was not originally made to handle...but I don't know that for certain.
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