Ram 3.6 Towing

[02SE]

Originally Posted by tcp71
I wonder if the fuel economy calculation has a minimum set at 4.7 mpg for the readout. Seems way too convenient that both had exactly the same reading. It could have been significantly less if there is a minimum value in the formula.


There's no minimum MPG that can be displayed. It's not surprising when you think about it. Essentially the same truck and load. It takes a certain amount of power to drive up that grade with that load. As long as they can both make the required power (with the Pentastar obviously needing higher RPM to do so) the energy used (MPG) will be similar.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted by itguy08
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Pentastar is an impressive engine. It makes similar numbers as the DI counterparts without being DI itself. Sure, DI is not that big of a deal, but if similar performance and fuel economy can be achieved without it, that's a plus in my book.

It's on par with the Ford 3.5/3.7, and the GM counterparts without DI as well as the Asian engines in the power department. It's an average engine for the class - not this super machine some think. I think the reason it got as much love as it did is because it's the first modern Chrysler engine in decades.


With the exception of Nissan's VQ engines, which Asian V6, non DI engines make the same power?

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted by KrisZ
Originally Posted by itguy08
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Pentastar is an impressive engine. It makes similar numbers as the DI counterparts without being DI itself. Sure, DI is not that big of a deal, but if similar performance and fuel economy can be achieved without it, that's a plus in my book.

It's on par with the Ford 3.5/3.7, and the GM counterparts without DI as well as the Asian engines in the power department. It's an average engine for the class - not this super machine some think. I think the reason it got as much love as it did is because it's the first modern Chrysler engine in decades.


With the exception of Nissan's VQ engines, which Asian V6, non DI engines make the same power?


Early Toyota 2GR-FE V6's came very close. Also later port-injected Honda 3.5's as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_J_engine

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted by itguy08
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Originally Posted by itguy08
Originally Posted by KrisZ
Pentastar is an impressive engine. It makes similar numbers as the DI counterparts without being DI itself. Sure, DI is not that big of a deal, but if similar performance and fuel economy can be achieved without it, that's a plus in my book.

It's on par with the Ford 3.5/3.7, and the GM counterparts without DI as well as the Asian engines in the power department. It's an average engine for the class - not this super machine some think. I think the reason it got as much love as it did is because it's the first modern Chrysler engine in decades.


With the exception of Nissan's VQ engines, which Asian V6, non DI engines make the same power?


Early Toyota 2GR-FE V6's came very close. Also later port-injected Honda 3.5's as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_J_engine


Right, close and on premium fuel. Pentastar in premium tune breakes 300hp no problem.

I understand those aren't earth shattering differences, and I never implied there are no other V6 engines with similar performance, but producing some of the top numbers is not "average" by my standards.

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted by KrisZ
Right, close and on premium fuel. Pentastar in premium tune breakes 300hp no problem.

I understand those aren't earth shattering differences, and I never implied there are no other V6 engines with similar performance, but producing some of the top numbers is not "average" by my standards.


Tuning is not a fair comparison for any engine. I'd say a few less HP for a smaller engine would be a wash. It's pretty average among the 3.5-3.7 class of engines and not the super engine many make it out to be. IMHO there really is no standout in that class so I'm not unfairly picking on Chrysler. They all are workhorses, and make about the same amount of power.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted by KrisZ

Right, close and on premium fuel. Pentastar in premium tune breakes 300hp no problem.

I'm running 91 in the Caravan and when I mash my foot into the floor the engine screams and takes off. It's easy to get up to 100mph if you aren't careful, in no time. I also find the 2018 much more responsive than my dad's 2012.

 

[Skippy722]

Originally Posted by KrisZ

Right, close and on premium fuel. Pentastar in premium tune breakes 300hp no problem.

I understand those aren't earth shattering differences, and I never implied there are no other V6 engines with similar performance, but producing some of the top numbers is not "average" by my standards.


They'll make 305 on 87 octane, unless you mean that is FCA's "premium" tune? My 300 is rated for 300hp and calls for regular gas.

I believe people praise the Pentastar because of how smooth it is with its big broad torque curve... more like torque table with how flat it is. 90% of peak torque available from ~1,800rpm all the way to near redline. Its also happy to rev, something I felt my 5.7 HEMI wasn't. The 5.7 always felt lethargic below 3,000-3,500rpm to me. Below that it felt like getting a teenager to get out of bed and do chores.

I haven't driven any Japanese v6's to compare them though.

 

[ofelas]

Originally Posted by Skippy722

I believe people praise the Pentastar because of how smooth it is with its big broad torque curve... more like torque table with how flat it is. 90% of peak torque available from ~1,800rpm all the way to near redline. Its also happy to rev, something I felt my 5.7 HEMI wasn't. The 5.7 always felt lethargic below 3,000-3,500rpm to me. Below that it felt like getting a teenager to get out of bed and do chores.


1/Whats "peak torque" on the 3.6 ?
2/ Where does usable torque start on this 5.7L ?

I'd be interested in seeing torque curves on both the above engines.

Thx

 

[Skippy722]

Originally Posted by ofelas
Originally Posted by Skippy722

I believe people praise the Pentastar because of how smooth it is with its big broad torque curve... more like torque table with how flat it is. 90% of peak torque available from ~1,800rpm all the way to near redline. Its also happy to rev, something I felt my 5.7 HEMI wasn't. The 5.7 always felt lethargic below 3,000-3,500rpm to me. Below that it felt like getting a teenager to get out of bed and do chores.


1/Whats "peak torque" on the 3.6 ?
2/ Where does usable torque start on this 5.7L ?

I'd be interested in seeing torque curves on both the above engines.

Thx


In the Ram, peak torque is 269ft lbs for the 3.6 and 410ft lbs for the 5.7.

I can't really find a fair comparison of dyno charts between the 3.6 and 5.7. Most of the charts online start at or well above 3,000rpm where, in my opinion, the 5.7 hemi came alive. The v6 feels stronger, again in my opinion, below that.

If you're towing or hauling a lot, you definitely want the v8 no questions asked. But most people don't tow or haul with their pick up trucks and would be served very well by the v6. Most people "want" the v8 though, where all they "need" is the 6, and there is nothing wrong with that.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by Skippy722
Originally Posted by KrisZ

Right, close and on premium fuel. Pentastar in premium tune breakes 300hp no problem.

I understand those aren't earth shattering differences, and I never implied there are no other V6 engines with similar performance, but producing some of the top numbers is not "average" by my standards.


They'll make 305 on 87 octane, unless you mean that is FCA's "premium" tune? My 300 is rated for 300hp and calls for regular gas.

I believe people praise the Pentastar because of how smooth it is with its big broad torque curve... more like torque table with how flat it is. 90% of peak torque available from ~1,800rpm all the way to near redline. Its also happy to rev, something I felt my 5.7 HEMI wasn't. The 5.7 always felt lethargic below 3,000-3,500rpm to me. Below that it felt like getting a teenager to get out of bed and do chores.

I haven't driven any Japanese v6's to compare them though.


What year was your RAM? Just wondering if you had the VCT HEMI or not.

 

[Skippy722]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Skippy722
Originally Posted by KrisZ

Right, close and on premium fuel. Pentastar in premium tune breakes 300hp no problem.

I understand those aren't earth shattering differences, and I never implied there are no other V6 engines with similar performance, but producing some of the top numbers is not "average" by my standards.


They'll make 305 on 87 octane, unless you mean that is FCA's "premium" tune? My 300 is rated for 300hp and calls for regular gas.

I believe people praise the Pentastar because of how smooth it is with its big broad torque curve... more like torque table with how flat it is. 90% of peak torque available from ~1,800rpm all the way to near redline. Its also happy to rev, something I felt my 5.7 HEMI wasn't. The 5.7 always felt lethargic below 3,000-3,500rpm to me. Below that it felt like getting a teenager to get out of bed and do chores.

I haven't driven any Japanese v6's to compare them though.


What year was your RAM? Just wondering if you had the VCT HEMI or not.


Had a Durango, 2011. Eagle motor, same trans as the Ram.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted by KrisZ
Pentastar is an impressive engine. It makes similar numbers as the DI counterparts without being DI itself. Sure, DI is not that big of a deal, but if similar performance and fuel economy can be achieved without it, that's a plus in my book.

A plus in my book too.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by Skippy722
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Skippy722
Originally Posted by KrisZ

Right, close and on premium fuel. Pentastar in premium tune breakes 300hp no problem.

I understand those aren't earth shattering differences, and I never implied there are no other V6 engines with similar performance, but producing some of the top numbers is not "average" by my standards.


They'll make 305 on 87 octane, unless you mean that is FCA's "premium" tune? My 300 is rated for 300hp and calls for regular gas.

I believe people praise the Pentastar because of how smooth it is with its big broad torque curve... more like torque table with how flat it is. 90% of peak torque available from ~1,800rpm all the way to near redline. Its also happy to rev, something I felt my 5.7 HEMI wasn't. The 5.7 always felt lethargic below 3,000-3,500rpm to me. Below that it felt like getting a teenager to get out of bed and do chores.

I haven't driven any Japanese v6's to compare them though.


What year was your RAM? Just wondering if you had the VCT HEMI or not.


Had a Durango, 2011. Eagle motor, same trans as the Ram.


Ahhh, OK, so you had the VCT 360HP/390TQ version mated to the venerable 5spd NAG-1. I would expect the Pentastar mated to the NAG-1 to feel even less frisky given it gives up 130lb-ft and makes it 550RPM later.

The 8spd has really done wonders for both it and the HEMI really. Even our little EcoDiesel feels reasonably quick mated to it.

This is the dyno graph for a stock 390HP HEMI:

As you can see, it makes more torque at just over 1,000RPM than the Pentastar makes peak.

 

[Skippy722]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL

Ahhh, OK, so you had the VCT 360HP/390TQ version mated to the venerable 5spd NAG-1. I would expect the Pentastar mated to the NAG-1 to feel even less frisky given it gives up 130lb-ft and makes it 550RPM later.

The 8spd has really done wonders for both it and the HEMI really. Even our little EcoDiesel feels reasonably quick mated to it.

This is the dyno graph for a stock 390HP HEMI:

As you can see, it makes more torque at just over 1,000RPM than the Pentastar makes peak.


Nope, had the 545RFE, 2012 and 2013 had the 65RFE which was basically the same transmission but you could use all 6 forward gears when using electronic range select vs 5. V6 models got the NAG1 for whatever reason, I feel like the NAG1 was geared better, less spread between 1st and 2nd.

I saw that graph, at least to my butt dyno the 5.7's power comes on like a surge, where the v6 feels like it'll give it all the second you put your foot down. The 2016 Charger R/T was like that as well, but not nearly as bad as my Durango was, the 8 speed is better at keeping it in its power band. A tuned 5.7 though feels WAAAAYYYYYY better though, but that's more apples to oranges.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by Skippy722
Originally Posted by OVERKILL

Ahhh, OK, so you had the VCT 360HP/390TQ version mated to the venerable 5spd NAG-1. I would expect the Pentastar mated to the NAG-1 to feel even less frisky given it gives up 130lb-ft and makes it 550RPM later.

The 8spd has really done wonders for both it and the HEMI really. Even our little EcoDiesel feels reasonably quick mated to it.

This is the dyno graph for a stock 390HP HEMI:

As you can see, it makes more torque at just over 1,000RPM than the Pentastar makes peak.


Nope, had the 545RFE, 2012 and 2013 had the 65RFE which was basically the same transmission but you could use all 6 forward gears when using electronic range select vs 5. V6 models got the NAG1 for whatever reason, I feel like the NAG1 was geared better, less spread between 1st and 2nd.

I saw that graph, at least to my butt dyno the 5.7's power comes on like a surge, where the v6 feels like it'll give it all the second you put your foot down. The 2016 Charger R/T was like that as well, but not nearly as bad as my Durango was, the 8 speed is better at keeping it in its power band. A tuned 5.7 though feels WAAAAYYYYYY better though, but that's more apples to oranges.


Oh that's funky, I would have expected the NAG-1, given the 6.4L in my Charger was backed by it

Wonder if it was transfer case related?

Perhaps it's the HP curves that you are feeling the difference in? The HEMI obviously makes a ton of torque, I'm thinking power delivery, which of course would hinge on VCT action, and is single-phase versus variable on intake/exhaust separately on the Pentastar, may be why it feels the way it does

We owned a 2016 Durango with the 3.6L and also test drove a 2017 with the 5.7L. The latter felt more ballsy everywhere, but both of them felt significantly less responsive than my 6.4L, which is of course also geared to the moon and I expect has significantly different throttle programming making direct comparisons like that somewhat silly. We felt the 3.6L worked really well for what it was; we were not unhappy with it, but my wife certainly likes the power of the HEMI better. She had a NAG-1 backed 5.7L in her 2006 Charger R/T before the Durango and missed it. She loves the torque of the EcoDiesel but hates the frequency of regens we are experiencing with it, which isn't uncommon with winter driving, and this is our first winter with it.

 

[Skippy722]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Skippy722
Originally Posted by OVERKILL

Ahhh, OK, so you had the VCT 360HP/390TQ version mated to the venerable 5spd NAG-1. I would expect the Pentastar mated to the NAG-1 to feel even less frisky given it gives up 130lb-ft and makes it 550RPM later.

The 8spd has really done wonders for both it and the HEMI really. Even our little EcoDiesel feels reasonably quick mated to it.

This is the dyno graph for a stock 390HP HEMI:

As you can see, it makes more torque at just over 1,000RPM than the Pentastar makes peak.


Nope, had the 545RFE, 2012 and 2013 had the 65RFE which was basically the same transmission but you could use all 6 forward gears when using electronic range select vs 5. V6 models got the NAG1 for whatever reason, I feel like the NAG1 was geared better, less spread between 1st and 2nd.

I saw that graph, at least to my butt dyno the 5.7's power comes on like a surge, where the v6 feels like it'll give it all the second you put your foot down. The 2016 Charger R/T was like that as well, but not nearly as bad as my Durango was, the 8 speed is better at keeping it in its power band. A tuned 5.7 though feels WAAAAYYYYYY better though, but that's more apples to oranges.


Oh that's funky, I would have expected the NAG-1, given the 6.4L in my Charger was backed by it

Wonder if it was transfer case related?

Perhaps it's the HP curves that you are feeling the difference in? The HEMI obviously makes a ton of torque, I'm thinking power delivery, which of course would hinge on VCT action, and is single-phase versus variable on intake/exhaust separately on the Pentastar, may be why it feels the way it does

We owned a 2016 Durango with the 3.6L and also test drove a 2017 with the 5.7L. The latter felt more ballsy everywhere, but both of them felt significantly less responsive than my 6.4L, which is of course also geared to the moon and I expect has significantly different throttle programming making direct comparisons like that somewhat silly. We felt the 3.6L worked really well for what it was; we were not unhappy with it, but my wife certainly likes the power of the HEMI better. She had a NAG-1 backed 5.7L in her 2006 Charger R/T before the Durango and missed it. She loves the torque of the EcoDiesel but hates the frequency of regens we are experiencing with it, which isn't uncommon with winter driving, and this is our first winter with it.


I didn't really think of all that lol... I could have easily been mistaken torque for power. Maybe I can convince my little brother to let me drive his Charger, same gearing similar weight just different engines

wish me luck on that one lol

 

[supton]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL

This is the dyno graph for a stock 390HP HEMI:

As you can see, it makes more torque at just over 1,000RPM than the Pentastar makes peak.

That's the deceiving part, isn't it? Ignoring any torque management, that Hemi will "start to come alive" as rpm climbs. And that's because it's truly making more torque. Whereas the Pentastar is making essentially the same torque at any rpm. The Hemi will "feel" better as it swings into the peak of its curve, but in reality it may well have been pulling harder than the Pentastar did the entire time. It might "feel" lackluster at lower rpm, but it's because, after a few hammer-downs, one only remembers the best part.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted by Skippy722

They'll make 305 on 87 octane, unless you mean that is FCA's "premium" tune? My 300 is rated for 300hp and calls for regular gas.



Thanks for clarifying it. I was talking about it being factory tuned to run premium, not aftermarket tunes. I was under the impression that the more powerful versions were tuned from the factory for premium fuel, similar to what other manufacturers are doing like Honda/Acura or Toyota/Lexus counterparts, but I just checked Allpar and pentastar will make 305hp on regular 87 octane in some applications. Not bad at all.

 

[StevieC]

It also depends on the version of Pentastar, some have EGR cooling with slightly higher compression ratios and also have the high lift valve system and some don't depending on the model and year.

Example: Jeep Grand Cherokee and Caravan

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by supton
Originally Posted by OVERKILL

This is the dyno graph for a stock 390HP HEMI:

As you can see, it makes more torque at just over 1,000RPM than the Pentastar makes peak.

That's the deceiving part, isn't it? Ignoring any torque management, that Hemi will "start to come alive" as rpm climbs. And that's because it's truly making more torque. Whereas the Pentastar is making essentially the same torque at any rpm. The Hemi will "feel" better as it swings into the peak of its curve, but in reality it may well have been pulling harder than the Pentastar did the entire time. It might "feel" lackluster at lower rpm, but it's because, after a few hammer-downs, one only remembers the best part.

Yes, that's the big difference between being able to phase intake/exhaust separately and not. I recall my E39 M5 had a torque curve that looked like Saskatchewan and it would make it from just off-idle. This was of course due to the dual VANOS setup that allowed the cams to be phased separately. With VCT on a pushrod motor, you are essentially just retarding camshaft timing as RPM increases, but the relationship between intake and exhaust remains the same and I would expect the limit for phasing is thus far less than on a DOHC setup with quad phasers.