R-12 availability

[JHZR2]

Spare the envrionment/government/DuPont conspiracy elements...

My 81 and 82 MBs take R-12. It is what the systems were designed for, it is what works best in them, etc.

My 240D wasnt cooling well yesterday in 94F heat and direct sun. It just couldnt keep up at all, compressor stayed on (no cycling), could hear the sound of refrigerant flowing through the EV, and the air got cool but not cold enough to be even slightly comfortable. Low on charge... Took it to my shop that Ive gotten R-12 systems serviced at before, and they verified this. Problem is, they dont have any R-12, and their supplier is out, sold the last bottle a week ago.

Is there a shortage on R-12, or are availability issues creeping up? I have no idea and dont really track it. Would prefer to run the correct refrigerant in it.

If my local guys really arent going to be keeping R-12 for whatever reason, I might consider going HC via the 134a transition route (not a sham retrofit, just if/when it escapes). Im not a fan of running 134a in these cars and in the R-4 compressor. I dont rely upon the cars, and dont run them that much currently (which is why the refrigerant ran out, IMO), and while garaged, they are not kept in a remotely airtight space. In not really wanting to argue the virtues or issues of HC refrigerants, just trying to figure my best route if R-12 is becoming unavailable...

Otherwise, what's the deal? Is there a shortage, or are distributors just out because of the hot weather and start of full-fledged summertime?

Or do we think that most shops will stop dealing with R-12 so they dont have to have three refrigerants once HFO-1234ya comes out?

Thanks!

 

[antiqueshell]

There is no shortage because very few cars still are being charged with the R 12, yet it is still being produced for use in other countries as well as the USA. The cost is another thing, although that cost has come down over the past 5 or 7 years.

Not sure why they say they can't get it though. Simply not true that there is a shortage in the US market because there isn't one.

My opinion is if your system works decently with an occasional recharge of R 12 DO NOT convert it over. Just keep R 12 on hand and get it charged. Maybe you should buy some cans yourself and supply them to your shop.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: antiqueshell
Not sure why they say they can't get it though. Simply not true that there is a shortage in the US market because there isn't one.


Me either. Said they called the distributor without any luck. Calling around to other auto AC shops, nobody is touching R-12 though! One guy said he might have some in the back... A little bit.

Ive called over 10 auto repair and auto AC shops - nobody has R-12 and nobody can even make a recommendation! My guy had it two years ago...

 

[bdcardinal]

Most shops hate dealing with R-12 because they need separate equipment for it so it does not mix with R-134a. Also stores are not supposed to sell it OTC unless you have the proper license.

 

[bvance554]

I know several years ago R12 was prohibitively expensive. I have some experience with a R134 retrofit on a 1990 Ford Taurus. I had help from my grandfather who is an experienced HVAC man. We screwed the new fittings on, vacuumed out the system, and charged it with R134 and oil and it worked beautifully for two years till the transmission gave out and I gave it away.

 

[bmod305]

We haven't been able to get any R12 for at least 6+ years for our store group. All the shops around us no longer have any R12 or equipment to deal with it. Convert to R134a or roll the windows down.

Dave

 

[JHZR2]

I have a 134a retrofit in my BMW which works well enough and is tight/no leaks. On the w123 with the R4 compressor, it just isnt great.

I do have a stock of R12 that was from long ago, before it became illegal to buy, maybe I need to tap into it... If I use a can tap and open one of the cans, will the rest leak out over time, or are the can taps pretty good?

 

[jrustles]

Try and read between the lines with some of those AC techs, I'm not sure if they can legally admit that they have the stuff on hand, so by hinting "maybe a bit in the back" is a pretty strong suggestion that he may be able to help you

Originally Posted By: JHZR2

I do have a stock of R12 that was from long ago, before it became illegal to buy, maybe I need to tap into it... If I use a can tap and open one of the cans, will the rest leak out over time, or are the can taps pretty good?


!!

 

[eljefino]

I'd offer that R12 up to the AC techs. Particularly if you can have the work done at your convenience they may have another project that needs half a can.

I saw about three cans with some other stuff at a flea market a few years ago for $12 a can and thought, hmm, then went back by what I thought was the same table later and it was just an empty space, no vendor.

 

[sasilverbullet]

Just look on Craigslist, lot's of R-12 to be had there!

 

[SrDriver]

There are several drop in refrigerant choices without spending the money to convert the system to R-134.

A local shop that works on vehicle air conditioning systems can give you different options.

 

[rshaw125]

I would not waste time or money on R134. I have an older van that took R12. Topped up the system with Enviro-safe 6-7 years ago. 39 degrees F through the center vents. A very cheap last option for AC.

 

[antiqueshell]

Originally Posted By: sasilverbullet
Just look on Craigslist, lot's of R-12 to be had there!


Same with ebay.

Plenty at reasonable prices too.

 

[demarpaint]

PM sent.

 

[Fleetmon]

I'd replenish what R-12 you need to use with some from ebay.....the can taps will hold for a while but doubtful for more than a year. Another option is to obtain an empty, used R-12 cylinder, evacuate it and transfer your small cans into the cylinder. I've seen some pretty rusty cans of R-12 the past few years.

I personally feel you're doing the correct thing keeping them with 12 as long as you can. R-12 is out there and available and the price has really dropped compared to several years ago. Although I don't have anything that uses 12 anymore, I keep my gauge set and vacuum pump clean and ready for use....just in case!

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: sasilverbullet
Just look on Craigslist, lot's of R-12 to be had there!


Im not trying to buy any, Im trying to find a shopwilling to stock and service R-12 so they can work on my car.

I called a bunch more places, let my fingers do the walking in the old yellow pages... One guy 30 miles away works on R-12, and another guy much closer also stocks it and could do it.

The closer guy told me that he doesnt remember the last time there was a request for service on an R-12 vehicle, but was happy to top it up. Ill size him up to see if he is worth his salt for a real service (new R/D) on my '82.

Most folks that were willing to discuss simply stated that with the cost (though it has come down) and the number of customers, they just didnt stock it anymore, and usually will just do a retrofit. Retrofits can work... My 91 318i has a retrofit in it, and it doesnt blow frigid, but it blows 60F air on 90F days, which is plenty comfortable... But the R4 setup in these old MB cars just doesnt do it well... Plus I dont like the idea of higher pressures in a 30+yo vehicle...

 

[rjundi]

Bummer of owning an outdated car.

The truth is a shop likely does not want to touch an antique AC system and have the customer really upset and mad at them when it does not fix it. All sorts of people use ancient vehicles besides car fans.

That is what a few shops told my father with a 1990 4runner that basically he abandoned in his back field 5 years ago as he another vehicle with working AC. A shame as vehicle is in immaculate condition with only 135k miles on it except for broken AC.

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Fleetmon
I'd replenish what R-12 you need to use with some from ebay.....


I actually got my EPA 609 cert... So I can buy R-12 if I want. Thing is, by the letter of the law, if Im topping a "slow leak" (2+ years to start blowing just cool), Im still supposed to find the leak and fix it. I dont have a shop nor the time to do this. So Im a bit hesitant to be logged in a database someplace for buying.

Of course, multiple shops did offer to do a R-12 service for me if I had and brought in the refrigerant...

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: rjundi
Bummer of owning an outdated car.

The truth is a shop likely does not want to touch an antique AC system and have the customer really upset and mad at them. All sorts of people use ancient vehicles besides car fans.


The shop Ive gone to in the setting up and servicing of many of these older cars has been perfectly willing to work it. They were in a situation where when its gone, its gone... I guess they didnt care to have $500+ tied up in R-12 that they cant sell...

 

[DBMaster]

I have three untouched cans of R-12 I would love to sell. I'd even let it go for $20/can, including shipping. The last opportunity I had to use it was when I needed to replace the compressor in my 89 Accord back in 2010. I shipped my mechanic the brand new Denso compressor from Rock Auto along with the receiver/drier. He told me he could use my R-12 in it, but that would have used up all of the three cans I had. The car used to need about a half can a year every spring from the day it drove off the lot. It even continued after I had the first compressor replaced in 1999 along with the hoses, schraeder valves and drier. I didn't want to hunt for R-12 anymore so I had him use Freeze 12 which is what he recommended since it required no change of the oil in the system and runs at similar pressures to R-12. Performance was about three degrees warmer than the R-12 so it was acceptable (43 degrees at the vent).

Then, I wrecked the car in 2012. So, I have these three nice cans of DuPont brand R-12 that sure could use a good home.