Question regarding filters used for extended OCIs.

[deeter16317]

What is considered the limiting factor on how long an oil filter should safely be used? Is it fear of the filter media loading up, or fear of the media actually failing from heat cycles?

After my last UOA, I was thinking 20k OCIs/FCIs. Now I'm considering another UOA at 20k and OCI/FCI at 30k (pending acceptable UOA results). If the thought is extended OCI heat cycles affects the filter media, I may reconsider...if it is fear of filter plugging, I would be less concerned (in my application/setup).

For reference, this is a standard Fleetguard filter used on a Cummins (no bypass or ADBV in the filter).

Thoughts?

 

[Quattro Pete]

Not sure about your application, but here is one tidbit of information from Mercedes... for extended oil drain intervals (this means 13K miles in the case of our C300), they require that you use an oil filter with fleece media. They claim that such filters have "the ability to absorb 20% more dirt than conventional paper filters." So it would seem that filter plugging is their concern.

But they also say this about a fleece oil filter: "a highly durable filter medium that helps protect against material degradation in difficult operating conditions (e.g. high temperatures, short-distance operation, etc.)", so maybe it's not all just about filter plugging.

 

[StevieC]

IMO if you use a quality filter in an engine that has more than 5,000 miles on it and is maintained well then 20K miles is not a problem to do on a filter.

It's when you use junk filters or when there is excess loading of the filter from an engine breaking in that its a problem.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Personally, I'd go no more than 15k and/or 18 months between oil changes regardless of the oil or filter used.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: StevieC


It's when you use junk filters or when there is excess loading of the filter from an engine breaking in that its a problem.

Does the break-in process really produce enough material to load up an oil filter? Some serious amounts of the engine material would have to be carried away for this to be a concern.

 

[StevieC]

In most cases no, but I have seen considerable amounts of filings in filters from new engines in the past so I'm saying that out of safety.

Filters are cheap engines aren't.

After the first 5K though there is virtually nothing that fills up a filter even after 20K miles in an engine unless its a known sludger or has a mechanical problem.

Most of the debris in oil today passes right through the filter because its smaller than the nominal micron rating of the filter anyways so the filter is really moot after the first 5K.

I had an engine we tore apart about 2 years ago that the filter hadn't been replaced in over 100K KM's (60K miles) and was practically welded on to the engine. We destroyed it getting it off and the media was clean inside in terms of debris.

The oil had been changed but not the filter because the guy didn't believe in it. This was before I was a member here or I would show you pictures of it.

(Believe it was an A/C Delco)

I have torn lots of engines apart to know this and I'm not speaking out of my arse.

 

[StevieC]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Personally, I'd go no more than 15k and/or 18 months between oil changes regardless of the oil or filter used.
Do you have support for this as to why you wouldn't?

Not being a jerk, just curious...

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Personally, I'd go no more than 15k and/or 18 months between oil changes regardless of the oil or filter used.
Do you have support for this as to why you wouldn't?

Not being a jerk, just curious...


No, I don't ... but I did contact K&N once asking them what the maximum length of time they suggested for an oil filter to be used because I had a vehicle that didn't get much mileage put on it. They said 18 months regardless of mileage was there maximum suggested time use due to the materials degrading with time. If it's valid or not, who knows, but you'd think K&N would know something about their products.

To me, oil and filters are among the lost cost maintenance items on a vehicle, so why take a change of pushing the product past it's usefulness period?

 

[StevieC]

Interesting - K&N

As for the cheap cost items, I agree but the OP was asking how long and from what I have seen it can be a very long time safely.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: deeter16317
What is considered the limiting factor on how long an oil filter should safely be used? Is it fear of the filter media loading up, or fear of the media actually failing from heat cycles?



Thoughts?


You're talking for your diesel. Soot control is your biggest issue with extended drains.

I don't think you can manage one year/30k on the same filter. It's not like a gas engine.

I wouldn't worry about material degradation. I'd be more concerned about loading.

I guess if you went to 9months or 22k+/- and did a used oil analysis to figure the soot level (and everything else), you'll know if you're on the right track.

If I attempted this, I'd be using something like a 57620XE from Wix or EaO80. They'll probably cost the same.

On second thought. Do it with the standard filter first. If it's a FAIL ..then graduate to the more expensive filters and retest at the same mileage.

 

[deeter16317]

I forgot to add that I do have a bypass filter on, and a bypass (it has changed configuration three times) has been installed since around 70k...I currently have just shy of 225k. This is my first full run on the newly installed B50, so I don't have a baseline like I did with my GCF.

I would need to look, but I believe I changed the oil less than 6 months ago, and have already accumulated 15k miles on that change...its not exactly a slow process for me as I typically average between 30k and 50k per year. So I'm within the "once-a-year" thing, and definitely within 18 months. I would guess 90% of my miles are cruising on the highway (at least the best you can cruise with 4.10 rears).

Between the bypass and regular OCIs (with some used oil analysis, all showing the oil in acceptable condition), the engine internals, short of the typical light varnish, do appear clean...so I don't believe there is a batch of crud floating around the engine. I have had the valve cover off a couple times, and my diesel guy never commented that things looked anything but good when he replaced the injectors. I'm well past the point of break-in...and probably going the other way at this point.

I guess my question is to the comment Gary made...run it until it fails. That doesn't sound particularly good. Run it until what fails? I guess you mean if the soot levels increase, showing a filtration deficiency?

I guess I don't understand extending OCIs if the FCI isn't extended as well? It seems counter-productive...any potential savings by running an extended OCI is lost in filter changes (most of us buy a more expensive synthetic to run extended drain intervals). If I'm going to change the filter, I would change the oil.

I guess the other alternative is to run 20k, UOA, OCI/FCI, and cut the filters apart and if things look OK, increase the interval?

 

[StevieC]

A note to my comments above... They are only applicable to gasoline engines and not Diesel.

If you are talking about a Diesel engine that is a whole other animal and I wouldn't recommend extending filter changes on them because of the soot factor that Gary mentioned.

Steve

 

[deeter16317]

Even with a bypass filter????

 

[StevieC]

Bypass is a different story...

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: StevieC
A note to my comments above... They are only applicable to gasoline engines and not Diesel.

If you are talking about a Diesel engine that is a whole other animal and I wouldn't recommend extending filter changes on them because of the soot factor that Gary mentioned.

Steve


Yep

Originally Posted By: deeter16317
Even with a bypass filter????


It will maintain the soot level within acceptable limits longer.

Quote:
I guess my question is to the comment Gary made...run it until it fails. That doesn't sound particularly good. Run it until what fails? I guess you mean if the soot levels increase, showing a filtration deficiency?


Yes. Fails the used oil analysis for soot level. Condemnation for soot ..or any other issue.



Quote:
I guess I don't understand extending OCIs if the FCI isn't extended as well? It seems counter-productive...any potential savings by running an extended OCI is lost in filter changes (most of us buy a more expensive synthetic to run extended drain intervals). If I'm going to change the filter, I would change the oil.


They can be two divorced items. If I run a Dual Guard on my 2.5 liter 4 quart sump 4 banger, I'll have an 8 quart sump with a set of filters on it that I won't saturate for 5 or 6 years. If I had 20gms capacity on (something like) a PureOne ..and 240gms capacity with the two EaBp110's ..that's 12 X the normal filter's capacity. With 6months being a point where the full flow isn't shot yet, that's 6 years ..maybe 7 or 8. The sump will never last that long, even under favorable conditions.

In that case, I'd be changing the sump around the filter's life. Nothing wrong with that as long as the economics play out. I'd have to get over twice the mileage out of the OCI and cover the replacement cost of the filters. I'd probably be able to rationalize the capital acquisition costs for the hardware since it won't depreciate much or will depreciate over the life span of the host unit. I guess I could factor recovering the $12-20/year for the hose/fittings/filter mount.

It all comes down to how you want to manage it. It comes down to a preference and proper sizing for the service you're enduring.

So, deeter, what is your goal? Longer drains and fewer bypass filter servicing? If so, get a bigger bypass filter to match your needs of soot control over the goal duration.


Right now you're at the 15k/6month OEM recommended service interval. To pay for the B50 filter, you've got to make up maybe $10-12 in avoided costs. @ (in the rough) $15/gallon for your 3 gallon sump (now maybe 13 quarts) you have to be able to get 20k to recover the cost of the additional filter.

The only way to find out is to go to 20k ..do a used oil analysis..and see what it says.

 

[Gary Allan]

Maybe dnewton3 will chime in. I suspect we're mostly in agreement ..but he should have some added input.

 

[deeter16317]

My goal is longer drains...keep the oil in service a reasonable length of time.

Ideally, I'd like to find some point where I either OCI/FCI at the same time, or FCI about 1/2 the OCI...not much sense in doing a filter change at 20k, then only running the oil another 10k...seems like a waste. I don't think 20k is a bad interval to hit, since the OE recommendation is 15k...I would wonder if running to 15k, completing a used oil analysis and FCI, then running another 15k would be better? Maybe 20k, used oil analysis/FCI, 20k?? It isn't about wasting money, but more about getting the most usable life from the oil and filter, and minimizing changing filters separately from the oil...trying to hit that "sweet spot". I feel the oil is plenty capable of taking whatever interval I feel like doing.

The B50 costs $5, and I really don't even factor the bypass into equation because it doesn't hurt anything if it plugs off, and I can see if its plugging off easy enough since it returns through the cap. Besides, its something I wanted and not something I absolutely needed to do!

So to your comment regarding "get a bigger bypass", do we know if its needed yet? At the time of sampling, the soot was showing 0.7% with just shy of 12k on the sump...so the jury is out on the B50 yet. My much larger GCF only did 0.4% soot, at a cost of 1.5 gallons of oil at each FCI.

I guess I'm getting hung up on those guys that are running oil out for long intervals and changing bypass filters all the time...like the Frantz guys. They change the bypass element every 2500 miles...but how often do they change the full flow? I know of one guy that claims (probably well over by now) 80k on a sump of Amsoil with only bypass changes (also a CTD)...what about the full flow, how often should it be changed?

I would think the bypass would prevent the full-flow from ever reaching a point of loading? If your only filtering 5u particles with a 30u filter, its going to take more time to plug the 30u filter. So that would indicate the lifespan of the media would be the interval...when does it become likely for media failure, assuming the filter would never plug?

Sorry for the long post...just random thoughts.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
used oil analysis/FCI, 20k??


How about just a used oil analysis at 20k and see what it shows?

To get the perfect setup is going to require testing and, perhaps, resizing. It will probably end up with you wasting some capacity on one or the other. You don't run a water softener to the point where the water is hard just to get the most out of the resin bed.

Quote:
The B50 costs $5, and I really don't even factor the bypass into equation because it doesn't hurt anything if it plugs off, and I can see if its plugging off easy enough since it returns through the cap. Besides, its something I wanted and not something I absolutely needed to do!


Great. If you can get 5k more for $5 ..that's not bad. You may get 10k more out of it for all we know right now.

Quote:
So to your comment regarding "get a bigger bypass", do we know if its needed yet? At the time of sampling, the soot was showing 0.7% with just shy of 12k on the sump...so the jury is out on the B50 yet. My much larger GCF only did 0.4% soot, at a cost of 1.5 gallons of oil at each FCI.


At what change out frequency.. in miles? If it was within the same 15k ..then it cost you the roll and 1.5qallons for no miles added.

Quote:
I guess I'm getting hung up on those guys that are running oil out for long intervals and changing bypass filters all the time...like the Frantz guys. They change the bypass element every 2500 miles...but how often do they change the full flow?


That's the trouble with the tp filters. Too few miles. I would hope that they could manage 5k without having the filter run cold. Over 15k you're spending 5-7 quarts of oil just in filter service (maybe less if they can drain it well).

I have no experience with the Frantz/MG tp rolls in a diesel. They work best in a lower mileage unit where the service interval (GAS) is every 3 months. 4 quarts of oil and 4 rolls of tp a year. It can pay for itself in a fairly short time.

I can't figure the full flow change. I'd tend to think that it would load with larger stuff, but would take longer to do so. Some believe that the full flow will be unused. I don't think I would make that stretch. You'll end up with a given level of cleanliness between them. TP/PT will catch some stuff that the full flow would otherwise see, but much of the stuff it takes out is below the full flow's capability.

 

[rslifkin]

Deeter - You could always remote mount the oil filter on a dual filter mount with 2 filters running in parallel. This way, each filter would only have to handle 1/2 the amount of soot, and would take twice as long to load up. Between that and the bypass, you should be able to go a while between changes.

 

[deeter16317]

Originally Posted By: rslifkin
Deeter - You could always remote mount the oil filter on a dual filter mount with 2 filters running in parallel. This way, each filter would only have to handle 1/2 the amount of soot, and would take twice as long to load up. Between that and the bypass, you should be able to go a while between changes.



The 3rd generation Dodge CTD doesn't work with remote mount filters...there is much on the internet about this, the remote filters cause the oil pressure light and MIL to illuminate.

So a dual remote is out...