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M1 15W50 :^)
Question for oil experts here...
- Thread starter SnogardE55AMG
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Originally Posted By: SnogardE55AMG
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Mobil 1 5w-50 is used in the SLR because that car will generate higher oil temperatures than yours will....
If that is your only explanation then let me again clear it to you. As i already said, many of us non SLR (but ordinary AMG) users with same engines like SLR drive our cars as hard, if not harder then most of SLR owners.
And Mercedes AMG drove BOTH cars harder during their testing than any of you do from day to day. They feel that the SLR needs a 5w-50, whereas your E55 AMG -- with much less boost and lower horsepower, as A_Harman mentioned -- will run all day on a 0w-40. These conclusions were backed up by scientific testing, driving the cars for countless miles and then actually taking the engines apart and measuring things. I'm not sure how you expect everyday people to do better than that, but if you do, then more power to you.
Originally Posted By: SnogardE55AMG
And yes, maybe because of that, we are seeing many catastrophic engine failures (with thinner oil), then SLR owners with thicker oil.
Since there are vastly more E55 AMGs than SLRs, this is exactly what I would expect.
Originally Posted By: SnogardE55AMG
So will i be better with catastrophic engine failure or with less protection at start and slightly higher oper.temp.? That is the whole point of that thread. And i come here to get opinions if thin oil is really the culprit of all our engine problems / or in your oil expert guys eyes-how much more is engine prone to catastrophic failure because of too weak oil film with 0W-40 comparing to 5W-50.
Any 229.50 oil should have a strong enough film to protect your engine at high temperatures. That's part of the point of the 229.50 spec. Thus, there will be no advantage to the 5w-50, and it's better to have the better cooling and start-up flow of a thinner oil.
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Mobil 1 5w-50 is used in the SLR because that car will generate higher oil temperatures than yours will....
If that is your only explanation then let me again clear it to you. As i already said, many of us non SLR (but ordinary AMG) users with same engines like SLR drive our cars as hard, if not harder then most of SLR owners.
And Mercedes AMG drove BOTH cars harder during their testing than any of you do from day to day. They feel that the SLR needs a 5w-50, whereas your E55 AMG -- with much less boost and lower horsepower, as A_Harman mentioned -- will run all day on a 0w-40. These conclusions were backed up by scientific testing, driving the cars for countless miles and then actually taking the engines apart and measuring things. I'm not sure how you expect everyday people to do better than that, but if you do, then more power to you.
Originally Posted By: SnogardE55AMG
And yes, maybe because of that, we are seeing many catastrophic engine failures (with thinner oil), then SLR owners with thicker oil.
Since there are vastly more E55 AMGs than SLRs, this is exactly what I would expect.
Originally Posted By: SnogardE55AMG
So will i be better with catastrophic engine failure or with less protection at start and slightly higher oper.temp.? That is the whole point of that thread. And i come here to get opinions if thin oil is really the culprit of all our engine problems / or in your oil expert guys eyes-how much more is engine prone to catastrophic failure because of too weak oil film with 0W-40 comparing to 5W-50.
Any 229.50 oil should have a strong enough film to protect your engine at high temperatures. That's part of the point of the 229.50 spec. Thus, there will be no advantage to the 5w-50, and it's better to have the better cooling and start-up flow of a thinner oil.
Originally Posted By: SnogardE55AMG
i can not find direct explanation in that thread for use of thick 5W-50 oil (which is not even 229.5 aprooved, which itself is kontradictory from mercedes itself) in mercedes flagship sport car SLR?
Just because something is better for the SLR, that doesn't mean it's better for your cars as well. Different car, different oil. Not better... just different.
Originally Posted By: SnogardE55AMG
All you are saying is that mercedes have good reasons to use thinner oil in last years. But if that is true, then why do they still use thick oil in SLR?
Because the SLR is the only car in their entire lineup that requires it.
Originally Posted By: SnogardE55AMG
I guess you are the one who did not read all that i wrote...
No, I read everything you wrote. But thinking about it now, I did fail to explain something.
As oil heats up, it becomes thinner. If the oil is too thin for the temperature, it will not protect the engine. Thus, the higher the temperature, the thicker the oil needs to be. This is why not all cars benefit from a thicker oil.
Here's another example. Castrol TWS 10w-60 works great in a newer M3, but in my car it would be far too thick because my car doesn't heat its oil up enough. My car prefers xw-30 and xw-40 oils, which would be too thin for a newer M3 because its oil temperatures are higher.
Hope that makes some sense.
Originally Posted By: SnogardE55AMG
But we are onto something and we are going to resolve that no matter what. As a matter of fact, for few months some of euro dealers in Europe are started to recommend ESSO 5w-40 oil instead of Mobil1 0W-40. So there must be something (bad) in the use of thin 0W-40 anyway...
5w-40 is not thicker than 0w-40. It is just harder to pump in cold temperatures. The big number (40, 50, etc.) is what tells you how thick the oil is; the W number only refers to how the oil behaves when it is very cold (e.g. well below 0º C).
A change from a 5w-40 to 0w-40 is most likely just a change of supplier. Remember, only the dealers are changing, since they have a variety of approved oils available. Mercedes AMG itself is still using and recommending Mobil 1 0w-40.
i can not find direct explanation in that thread for use of thick 5W-50 oil (which is not even 229.5 aprooved, which itself is kontradictory from mercedes itself) in mercedes flagship sport car SLR?
Just because something is better for the SLR, that doesn't mean it's better for your cars as well. Different car, different oil. Not better... just different.
Originally Posted By: SnogardE55AMG
All you are saying is that mercedes have good reasons to use thinner oil in last years. But if that is true, then why do they still use thick oil in SLR?
Because the SLR is the only car in their entire lineup that requires it.
Originally Posted By: SnogardE55AMG
I guess you are the one who did not read all that i wrote...
No, I read everything you wrote. But thinking about it now, I did fail to explain something.
As oil heats up, it becomes thinner. If the oil is too thin for the temperature, it will not protect the engine. Thus, the higher the temperature, the thicker the oil needs to be. This is why not all cars benefit from a thicker oil.
Here's another example. Castrol TWS 10w-60 works great in a newer M3, but in my car it would be far too thick because my car doesn't heat its oil up enough. My car prefers xw-30 and xw-40 oils, which would be too thin for a newer M3 because its oil temperatures are higher.
Hope that makes some sense.
Originally Posted By: SnogardE55AMG
But we are onto something and we are going to resolve that no matter what. As a matter of fact, for few months some of euro dealers in Europe are started to recommend ESSO 5w-40 oil instead of Mobil1 0W-40. So there must be something (bad) in the use of thin 0W-40 anyway...
5w-40 is not thicker than 0w-40. It is just harder to pump in cold temperatures. The big number (40, 50, etc.) is what tells you how thick the oil is; the W number only refers to how the oil behaves when it is very cold (e.g. well below 0º C).
A change from a 5w-40 to 0w-40 is most likely just a change of supplier. Remember, only the dealers are changing, since they have a variety of approved oils available. Mercedes AMG itself is still using and recommending Mobil 1 0w-40.
Since M1 0w-40 is the factory fill, I'd stick with that. I don't think Benz would use an oil that would harm their motor, in a 100K vehicle.
Use Mobil 1 0w40 and call it a day. Thinking way too much into it.
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
A big difference in the SLR is that it makes 600+HP, and your car makes 469....
That exactly is the problem i think; My car indeed make 476 HP stock, but many of us E 55 AMG owners did pump up our HP to over 650 crank HP (with just few bolts on, nothing change inside engine), and we run it with greater boost and i think greater oil temps then stock SLR does. So is that kind of engine demanding thicker then OEM 0W-40 oil? With all that said, do not think that only tuned E55 blowes up with OEM 0W-40. Many of 100% stock E55 did blow up when using stock Mobil1 0W-40 oil, and there are no (or very low number) recorded blow ups with previous OEM oil 15W-50. And that is the whole point of this thread.
A big difference in the SLR is that it makes 600+HP, and your car makes 469....
That exactly is the problem i think; My car indeed make 476 HP stock, but many of us E 55 AMG owners did pump up our HP to over 650 crank HP (with just few bolts on, nothing change inside engine), and we run it with greater boost and i think greater oil temps then stock SLR does. So is that kind of engine demanding thicker then OEM 0W-40 oil? With all that said, do not think that only tuned E55 blowes up with OEM 0W-40. Many of 100% stock E55 did blow up when using stock Mobil1 0W-40 oil, and there are no (or very low number) recorded blow ups with previous OEM oil 15W-50. And that is the whole point of this thread.
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
From reading this whole thread, the OP is saying that Mobil 0W-40 is not making his engine run as quiet as he wants; nor is German Castrol 0W-30. And from what I'm reading, the OP seems to think that a thicker oil is what's needed to quiet the engine. My question is this: what if a different brand of 0W-40 was tried other than Mobil; could that possibly dampen the engine noise like the OP wants?
Good point, very good point! On top of all that i am also afraid that my stock (or moded in the future) engine will not be satisfied with 0W-40 when i will run it hard.
From reading this whole thread, the OP is saying that Mobil 0W-40 is not making his engine run as quiet as he wants; nor is German Castrol 0W-30. And from what I'm reading, the OP seems to think that a thicker oil is what's needed to quiet the engine. My question is this: what if a different brand of 0W-40 was tried other than Mobil; could that possibly dampen the engine noise like the OP wants?
Good point, very good point! On top of all that i am also afraid that my stock (or moded in the future) engine will not be satisfied with 0W-40 when i will run it hard.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
As oil heats up, it becomes thinner. If the oil is too thin for the temperature, it will not protect the engine. Thus, the higher the temperature, the thicker the oil needs to be. This is why not all cars benefit from a thicker oil....
Thank you so very much for your time and effort; i think i will listen to you and use OEM spec oil in my stock engine. But what do you think should i use when i will start to approach SLR HP numbers with moding? Stick with 0W-40 or go thicker? With that said i get what i was looking for, so thank you all for your help again.
Best regards from sLOVEnia,
SnogardE55AMG
As oil heats up, it becomes thinner. If the oil is too thin for the temperature, it will not protect the engine. Thus, the higher the temperature, the thicker the oil needs to be. This is why not all cars benefit from a thicker oil....
Thank you so very much for your time and effort; i think i will listen to you and use OEM spec oil in my stock engine. But what do you think should i use when i will start to approach SLR HP numbers with moding? Stick with 0W-40 or go thicker? With that said i get what i was looking for, so thank you all for your help again.
Best regards from sLOVEnia,
SnogardE55AMG
More power, more heat, but in street use it rarely translates in higher oil temp's because it can't be sustained long enough.
You mentioned you've installed an oil pressure gauge. As you have discovered, even with 0W-30 GC your OP is well above spec' minimums. It is now not possible to knowingly run an oil too light.
You mentioned you've installed an oil pressure gauge. As you have discovered, even with 0W-30 GC your OP is well above spec' minimums. It is now not possible to knowingly run an oil too light.
Originally Posted By: SnogardE55AMG
Thank you so very much for your time and effort; i think i will listen to you and use OEM spec oil in my stock engine. But what do you think should i use when i will start to approach SLR HP numbers with moding? Stick with 0W-40 or go thicker? With that said i get what i was looking for, so thank you all for your help again.
Best regards from sLOVEnia,
SnogardE55AMG
No problem. I apologize for not being clear sooner.
Finding the best oil for your car is actually a fairly intensive process. Anyone can guess, but there is no way to know without doing some work.
Here is the bare minimum you must do. First, while your engine is still stock, get some good oil temperature and oil pressure gauges (if your car doesn't already have them). Also, find a good lab that will do used oil analysis (UOA), and send some samples. This will generate a baseline. Then, as you modify your car, see how those numbers change. This will give you some basic information on which to base your choice of oil.
It's hard to say whether you will need a new oil with SLR HP numbers because, for one thing, your oil temperatures may not actually increase much. Remember that the SLR was designed to drive at maximum speed for long periods of time in the hottest (and coldest) climates in the world, so its oil was chosen accordingly. I don't think Slovenia is as hot as the Sahara Desert, and you may not be running flat-out for hours at a time, so you might be okay with the normal oil choice (remember also that the Porsche Carrera GT, Porsche 911 GT2 RS, and Corvette ZR1, all of which have well over 600 HP, also use Mobil 1 0w-40). However, you may want to tune your car conservatively and run rich for safety, which might generate fuel dilution; if the fuel dilution is high, a different oil might help. This is one question that a good UOA can help you answer.
Again, I hope this is helpful. If anything is unclear, please let me know.
Thank you so very much for your time and effort; i think i will listen to you and use OEM spec oil in my stock engine. But what do you think should i use when i will start to approach SLR HP numbers with moding? Stick with 0W-40 or go thicker? With that said i get what i was looking for, so thank you all for your help again.
Best regards from sLOVEnia,
SnogardE55AMG
No problem. I apologize for not being clear sooner.
Finding the best oil for your car is actually a fairly intensive process. Anyone can guess, but there is no way to know without doing some work.
Here is the bare minimum you must do. First, while your engine is still stock, get some good oil temperature and oil pressure gauges (if your car doesn't already have them). Also, find a good lab that will do used oil analysis (UOA), and send some samples. This will generate a baseline. Then, as you modify your car, see how those numbers change. This will give you some basic information on which to base your choice of oil.
It's hard to say whether you will need a new oil with SLR HP numbers because, for one thing, your oil temperatures may not actually increase much. Remember that the SLR was designed to drive at maximum speed for long periods of time in the hottest (and coldest) climates in the world, so its oil was chosen accordingly. I don't think Slovenia is as hot as the Sahara Desert, and you may not be running flat-out for hours at a time, so you might be okay with the normal oil choice (remember also that the Porsche Carrera GT, Porsche 911 GT2 RS, and Corvette ZR1, all of which have well over 600 HP, also use Mobil 1 0w-40). However, you may want to tune your car conservatively and run rich for safety, which might generate fuel dilution; if the fuel dilution is high, a different oil might help. This is one question that a good UOA can help you answer.
Again, I hope this is helpful. If anything is unclear, please let me know.
Originally Posted By: SnogardE55AMG
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
A big difference in the SLR is that it makes 600+HP, and your car makes 469....
That exactly is the problem i think; My car indeed make 476 HP stock, but many of us E 55 AMG owners did pump up our HP to over 650 crank HP (with just few bolts on, nothing change inside engine), and we run it with greater boost and i think greater oil temps then stock SLR does. So is that kind of engine demanding thicker then OEM 0W-40 oil? With all that said, do not think that only tuned E55 blowes up with OEM 0W-40. Many of 100% stock E55 did blow up when using stock Mobil1 0W-40 oil, and there are no (or very low number) recorded blow ups with previous OEM oil 15W-50. And that is the whole point of this thread.
Is your car pumped up over stock HP? This is a danger when modifying supercharged cars; you can pump up the power easily, but if you don't do the additional engineering necessary to make the car live at the higher power, you can end up with a blown engine. If you've increased power by almost 40% (i.e., 470 to 650), you're putting more heat into the engine. This heat must be rejected to keep fluids at safe working temperatures. Just putting xw50-weight oil into it is not necessarily going to solve the problem. Higher-viscosity oils will tend to run hotter anyway, because of higher friction while it is in the bearings, lower overall oil flow, and more churning in the crankcase. (This is why I was recommending the Redline 5w40. It has equivalent High-temperature, High-shear viscosity to 50-weights, but has kinematic viscosities of 40-weights.) Get to the basics of the problem: understand what the oil temperature is while driving hard, and if there is stable oil pressure in the turns.
When you say that many E55's are blowing up, what kind of failures are occurring? Are they definitely bearing failures? Or are they failing due to overheating and detonation?
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
A big difference in the SLR is that it makes 600+HP, and your car makes 469....
That exactly is the problem i think; My car indeed make 476 HP stock, but many of us E 55 AMG owners did pump up our HP to over 650 crank HP (with just few bolts on, nothing change inside engine), and we run it with greater boost and i think greater oil temps then stock SLR does. So is that kind of engine demanding thicker then OEM 0W-40 oil? With all that said, do not think that only tuned E55 blowes up with OEM 0W-40. Many of 100% stock E55 did blow up when using stock Mobil1 0W-40 oil, and there are no (or very low number) recorded blow ups with previous OEM oil 15W-50. And that is the whole point of this thread.
Is your car pumped up over stock HP? This is a danger when modifying supercharged cars; you can pump up the power easily, but if you don't do the additional engineering necessary to make the car live at the higher power, you can end up with a blown engine. If you've increased power by almost 40% (i.e., 470 to 650), you're putting more heat into the engine. This heat must be rejected to keep fluids at safe working temperatures. Just putting xw50-weight oil into it is not necessarily going to solve the problem. Higher-viscosity oils will tend to run hotter anyway, because of higher friction while it is in the bearings, lower overall oil flow, and more churning in the crankcase. (This is why I was recommending the Redline 5w40. It has equivalent High-temperature, High-shear viscosity to 50-weights, but has kinematic viscosities of 40-weights.) Get to the basics of the problem: understand what the oil temperature is while driving hard, and if there is stable oil pressure in the turns.
When you say that many E55's are blowing up, what kind of failures are occurring? Are they definitely bearing failures? Or are they failing due to overheating and detonation?
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: SnogardE55AMG
Originally Posted By: SnogardE55AMG
A_Harman said:
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
SnogardE55AMG said:
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
It would be more accurate to say newer M3's "may see" higher oil temp's. The reality is, even most street driven BMW's for which the TWS is specified still don't see higher oil temp's. This actually supports your main point of not needing to run a heavier oil even with higher performance engines.
Correct. I was simplifying.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
If I'm not mistaken the spec' oil for the Corvette ZR-1 is M1 5W-30, the same oil as for the normally aspirated Corvettes.
Right you are. Thanks for the correction, and apologies for the error.
It would be more accurate to say newer M3's "may see" higher oil temp's. The reality is, even most street driven BMW's for which the TWS is specified still don't see higher oil temp's. This actually supports your main point of not needing to run a heavier oil even with higher performance engines.
Correct. I was simplifying.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
If I'm not mistaken the spec' oil for the Corvette ZR-1 is M1 5W-30, the same oil as for the normally aspirated Corvettes.
Right you are. Thanks for the correction, and apologies for the error.
No apology necessary.
Somewhat off topic but kudos to the GM engineers that designed the ZR-1 engine to run on a relatively inexpensive, OTC HTHS 3.1cP oil. I'm sure all high performance car manufacturers could but it's obviously easier from an engineering perspective if you don't have that oil choice limitation to deal with.
Somewhat off topic but kudos to the GM engineers that designed the ZR-1 engine to run on a relatively inexpensive, OTC HTHS 3.1cP oil. I'm sure all high performance car manufacturers could but it's obviously easier from an engineering perspective if you don't have that oil choice limitation to deal with.
Thanks to all of you who helped me in this thread. According to all your advices my decision is to use Mercedes OEM oil Mobil 1 0W-40 in all circumstances (between that maybe do some good UOA), except if my oil pressure will drop at high temps when my car will me moded. And even then, at winter time i will still stick with 0W-40 and try to not run the car to hard (so to stay at low oil temps).
So as far as me, this thread can end. Thanks again to all of you guys, and i hope i will get your help again when i will be needing it.
I am so happy that i finnaly decided which oil to use in that M113.99X engine, because i had always put a lot of research and time into finding the wright oil for my engine. And this time it was no different. So i am very happy to end it at last
Snogard
So as far as me, this thread can end. Thanks again to all of you guys, and i hope i will get your help again when i will be needing it.
I am so happy that i finnaly decided which oil to use in that M113.99X engine, because i had always put a lot of research and time into finding the wright oil for my engine. And this time it was no different. So i am very happy to end it at last
Snogard
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Is your car pumped up over stock HP? This is a danger when modifying supercharged cars; you can pump up the power easily, but if you don't do the additional engineering necessary to make the car live at the higher power, you can end up with a blown engine.
We always take care of better engine cooling after pump up HPs. It is in nature of that engine that if we pump up the boost, and do not improve intake air charge cooling, that ECU is shuting down suoperharger engagement because of too high IATS. So we MUST always improove cooling after pumping up power and torque or we can not enjoy full power because ECU is not allowing us to turn on supercharger. We improve intake air charge cooling, and sometimes even engine cooling itself (oil cooling AND antifreeze cooling).
And yes, most of the cases when engine blows is due to spun bearings. Hole in the piston because of detonation also heapens, but not that often, also broken exhaust valve. But most of the time spun bearing or broken piston ring lands happened because of not strong enough oil film.
Is your car pumped up over stock HP? This is a danger when modifying supercharged cars; you can pump up the power easily, but if you don't do the additional engineering necessary to make the car live at the higher power, you can end up with a blown engine.
We always take care of better engine cooling after pump up HPs. It is in nature of that engine that if we pump up the boost, and do not improve intake air charge cooling, that ECU is shuting down suoperharger engagement because of too high IATS. So we MUST always improove cooling after pumping up power and torque or we can not enjoy full power because ECU is not allowing us to turn on supercharger. We improve intake air charge cooling, and sometimes even engine cooling itself (oil cooling AND antifreeze cooling).
And yes, most of the cases when engine blows is due to spun bearings. Hole in the piston because of detonation also heapens, but not that often, also broken exhaust valve. But most of the time spun bearing or broken piston ring lands happened because of not strong enough oil film.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: sangyup81
Originally Posted By: SnogardE55AMG
i had always put a lot of research and time into finding the right oil for my engine
You're a great fit for these forums!
Thanks. I realised that also
Originally Posted By: SnogardE55AMG
i had always put a lot of research and time into finding the right oil for my engine
You're a great fit for these forums!
Thanks. I realised that also
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