0w is the best oil except for applications where straight 30 grade is preferred(example: Mazda rotary powered, push mowers).
Question About 0W Oils
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The best except perhaps when 0W is a bit too thin for a particular engine at low temps?
If 0W was a perfect and universally-suitable replacement for 5W, why would oil makers produce synthetics like 0W-20 and 5W-20 side-by-side? Why not discontinue the latter? (I know it sounds dickish the way I asked, but I'm being sincere, not snarky.)
If 0W was a perfect and universally-suitable replacement for 5W, why would oil makers produce synthetics like 0W-20 and 5W-20 side-by-side? Why not discontinue the latter? (I know it sounds dickish the way I asked, but I'm being sincere, not snarky.)
Too thin at low temps? I'm not sure that is possible. I don't know that anything above regular operating viscosity could be too thin at low temps.
But I agree with the question? They seem sort of redundant. Why not 5wXX conventionals and 0wXX synthetics?
But I agree with the question? They seem sort of redundant. Why not 5wXX conventionals and 0wXX synthetics?
If some engines call for 10W and others 0W, then I'm assuming that for the former, 0W would be too thin. Also, if 0W wasn't too thin for some engines with higher mileage, they wouldn't make 10W "high mileage" oils (e.g. MaxLife). Unless those oils are marketing nonsense.
Originally Posted By: glum
If some engines call for 10W and others 0W, then I'm assuming that for the former, 0W would be too thin. Also, if 0W wasn't too thin for some engines with higher mileage, they wouldn't make 10W "high mileage" oils (e.g. MaxLife). Unless those oils are marketing nonsense.
I am of the opinion that 10w30 is a little tiny bit thicker across the board and still has less VIIs than a 5w30, and is better in older engines. please critique my opinion.
glum, i see what you are saying we must now see if it masses muster AT ALL w the ooil gods. i think it is a super slight difference, but still true in that sense that "there is still more oil ina 10W than a 5W" except if no VIIs are used, and it will be "thicker" and therefore slightly "better" across the board including full hot by a touch as 30 is a RANGE not a value) and ever-so-slightly better for an engine that might expose issues on a thinner oil.
If some engines call for 10W and others 0W, then I'm assuming that for the former, 0W would be too thin. Also, if 0W wasn't too thin for some engines with higher mileage, they wouldn't make 10W "high mileage" oils (e.g. MaxLife). Unless those oils are marketing nonsense.
I am of the opinion that 10w30 is a little tiny bit thicker across the board and still has less VIIs than a 5w30, and is better in older engines. please critique my opinion.
glum, i see what you are saying we must now see if it masses muster AT ALL w the ooil gods. i think it is a super slight difference, but still true in that sense that "there is still more oil ina 10W than a 5W" except if no VIIs are used, and it will be "thicker" and therefore slightly "better" across the board including full hot by a touch as 30 is a RANGE not a value) and ever-so-slightly better for an engine that might expose issues on a thinner oil.
I think it's partly marketing, they'll make what ever sells. For something like leaking valve seals I would think a 10w might be better but as far as the engine operation, I don't know. I gotta think as thin as you can get is better until opperating temps are reached.
Don't think I'm qualified to critiqe anyone but at 100C, Petro-Canada's 0w30(11.2) is actually thicker than their 5w30(11.0) or 10w30(10.5) however HTHS is the same for all three.
Don't think I'm qualified to critiqe anyone but at 100C, Petro-Canada's 0w30(11.2) is actually thicker than their 5w30(11.0) or 10w30(10.5) however HTHS is the same for all three.
Originally Posted By: glum
The best except perhaps when 0W is a bit too thin for a particular engine at low temps?
If 0W was a perfect and universally-suitable replacement for 5W, why would oil makers produce synthetics like 0W-20 and 5W-20 side-by-side? Why not discontinue the latter? (I know it sounds dickish the way I asked, but I'm being sincere, not snarky.)
I don't think an 0w oil could possibly be too thin.From everything i have read no oil 0,5,or10 is thin enough at startup for optimal protection,oil is at it's best when at operational temp.and that is pretty much consistent across the board a 20 or 30 grade is just that at operational temps.no matter a 0,5,or10 when cold.I would use an 0w oil with no problem accept i don't 100% completly buy into the syn is better theory and the only way to have an 0w oil is to use syn.If it were possible to have a conventional oil in 0w grade i would already be using it due to the better flow when cold even in a warmer climate.
The best except perhaps when 0W is a bit too thin for a particular engine at low temps?
If 0W was a perfect and universally-suitable replacement for 5W, why would oil makers produce synthetics like 0W-20 and 5W-20 side-by-side? Why not discontinue the latter? (I know it sounds dickish the way I asked, but I'm being sincere, not snarky.)
I don't think an 0w oil could possibly be too thin.From everything i have read no oil 0,5,or10 is thin enough at startup for optimal protection,oil is at it's best when at operational temp.and that is pretty much consistent across the board a 20 or 30 grade is just that at operational temps.no matter a 0,5,or10 when cold.I would use an 0w oil with no problem accept i don't 100% completly buy into the syn is better theory and the only way to have an 0w oil is to use syn.If it were possible to have a conventional oil in 0w grade i would already be using it due to the better flow when cold even in a warmer climate.
I doubt the 0W would be too thin as well, but I'm guessing that unless you're in truly extreme cold, it doesn't matter compared to 5W.
But here's what else I'm thinking: Multi-grade oils don't just start out at 0W or 5W (or whatever) when cold, and then instantly switch to 30 (or whatever) when hot. There is a curve that relates viscosity to temperature. I'm not sure but I think that at any given temperature between the outside temp and operating temp, the 0W will tend to be a bit thinner than the 5W. It's not just thinner at the lowest temperature; it's thinner right up until the max temp as well.
Again, I'm guessing. And again, the difference between 5W and 0W along the temp curve probably isn't worth bothering about unless the outside temps are extremely low.
I found this web-based tool to show what I'm saying. I plugged in 0W-20 and 5W-20 (and deleted the other two oils that are automatically populated), and if the graph is reasonably accurate in concept (I know each individual oil is different), I think I'm right. But I'm not saying that 0W is unsuitable or that it makes a big difference...
But here's what else I'm thinking: Multi-grade oils don't just start out at 0W or 5W (or whatever) when cold, and then instantly switch to 30 (or whatever) when hot. There is a curve that relates viscosity to temperature. I'm not sure but I think that at any given temperature between the outside temp and operating temp, the 0W will tend to be a bit thinner than the 5W. It's not just thinner at the lowest temperature; it's thinner right up until the max temp as well.
Again, I'm guessing. And again, the difference between 5W and 0W along the temp curve probably isn't worth bothering about unless the outside temps are extremely low.
I found this web-based tool to show what I'm saying. I plugged in 0W-20 and 5W-20 (and deleted the other two oils that are automatically populated), and if the graph is reasonably accurate in concept (I know each individual oil is different), I think I'm right. But I'm not saying that 0W is unsuitable or that it makes a big difference...
Originally Posted By: NateDN10
To my knowledge, there are no cars that require the 0w30 viscosity.
My 03 Saab 9-3 speced 0w30 in the owners manual. I use to buy the Saab 0w30 oil from the dealer. It was made in the EU by Mobil. Then Saab got cheap, and stopped importing it into the US. The dealers started stocking Mobil 1 0W-40.
To my knowledge, there are no cars that require the 0w30 viscosity.
My 03 Saab 9-3 speced 0w30 in the owners manual. I use to buy the Saab 0w30 oil from the dealer. It was made in the EU by Mobil. Then Saab got cheap, and stopped importing it into the US. The dealers started stocking Mobil 1 0W-40.
Yep, I think you've got it, thinner throughout the whole temp scale.
Let's face it, we could probably all run 10w30 in everything and not cause extreme damage but it's not optimal.
As for why the manufactures make both, I think this was talked about before. Possibly because of the lack of educated consumers. A lot of people would not use 0wXX because they think it's too thin......found it
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
0W-XX oils don't sell particularly well vs their 5W-XX counterparts. I'm sure PC sales are 10 to 1 in favour of their 5w30 dispite the higher price.
Reason? Consumer ignorance. If a car guy like Jay Leno can think 0W-XX means zero viscosity (recent RL video) what hope is there for the rest of the motoring public?
Let's face it, we could probably all run 10w30 in everything and not cause extreme damage but it's not optimal.
As for why the manufactures make both, I think this was talked about before. Possibly because of the lack of educated consumers. A lot of people would not use 0wXX because they think it's too thin......found it
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
0W-XX oils don't sell particularly well vs their 5W-XX counterparts. I'm sure PC sales are 10 to 1 in favour of their 5w30 dispite the higher price.
Reason? Consumer ignorance. If a car guy like Jay Leno can think 0W-XX means zero viscosity (recent RL video) what hope is there for the rest of the motoring public?
Yes,i see what your saying and i agree the difference between 0w and 5w is minimal at most.The graph you found is a good tool thanks.I feel the really hardcore oil guys see this minimal difference as being significant.In numbers it seems to be but,in real world situations it is most likely of lesser overall value.In the end at 300k when a car is a rust bucket the engine on either 0w or 5w will still be the best part and most likely still be running.
Originally Posted By: cp3
Yep, I think you've got it, thinner throughout the whole temp scale.
Let's face it, we could probably all run 10w30 in everything and not cause extreme damage but it's not optimal.
As for why the manufactures make both, I think this was talked about before. Possibly because of the lack of educated consumers. A lot of people would not use 0wXX because they think it's too thin......found it
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
0W-XX oils don't sell particularly well vs their 5W-XX counterparts. I'm sure PC sales are 10 to 1 in favour of their 5w30 dispite the higher price.
Reason? Consumer ignorance. If a car guy like Jay Leno can think 0W-XX means zero viscosity (recent RL video) what hope is there for the rest of the motoring public?
I agree. I bought all Mobil 1 0W20 and 0W40 quart bottles on clearance shelf at a local Walmart 3 years ago for $2/qt, while the other grades (5W20 and Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5w40) was at regular price of $6.xx/qt.
Yep, I think you've got it, thinner throughout the whole temp scale.
Let's face it, we could probably all run 10w30 in everything and not cause extreme damage but it's not optimal.
As for why the manufactures make both, I think this was talked about before. Possibly because of the lack of educated consumers. A lot of people would not use 0wXX because they think it's too thin......found it
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
0W-XX oils don't sell particularly well vs their 5W-XX counterparts. I'm sure PC sales are 10 to 1 in favour of their 5w30 dispite the higher price.
Reason? Consumer ignorance. If a car guy like Jay Leno can think 0W-XX means zero viscosity (recent RL video) what hope is there for the rest of the motoring public?
I agree. I bought all Mobil 1 0W20 and 0W40 quart bottles on clearance shelf at a local Walmart 3 years ago for $2/qt, while the other grades (5W20 and Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5w40) was at regular price of $6.xx/qt.
Originally Posted By: cp3
Too thin at low temps? I'm not sure that is possible. I don't know that anything above regular operating viscosity could be too thin at low temps.
But I agree with the question? They seem sort of redundant. Why not 5wXX conventionals and 0wXX synthetics?
Your right too thin at low temps is impossible.
In fact even the lightest 0W-20 oil you can buy is much thicker than optimal for every application there is until you get some heat into it too thin it out. And that means oil temp's of at least 70C.
You
Too thin at low temps? I'm not sure that is possible. I don't know that anything above regular operating viscosity could be too thin at low temps.
But I agree with the question? They seem sort of redundant. Why not 5wXX conventionals and 0wXX synthetics?
Your right too thin at low temps is impossible.
In fact even the lightest 0W-20 oil you can buy is much thicker than optimal for every application there is until you get some heat into it too thin it out. And that means oil temp's of at least 70C.
You
Originally Posted By: cp3
Don't think I'm qualified to critiqe anyone but at 100C, Petro-Canada's 0w30(11.2) is actually thicker than their 5w30(11.0) or 10w30(10.5) however HTHS is the same for all three.
Actually if they all have the same HTHS vis' then they all have the same operational viscosity at normal operating temp's regardless of what their KV100 spec's might be.
The following post explains why in more detail:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/2001169/
Don't think I'm qualified to critiqe anyone but at 100C, Petro-Canada's 0w30(11.2) is actually thicker than their 5w30(11.0) or 10w30(10.5) however HTHS is the same for all three.
Actually if they all have the same HTHS vis' then they all have the same operational viscosity at normal operating temp's regardless of what their KV100 spec's might be.
The following post explains why in more detail:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/2001169/
Originally Posted By: 4ever4d
Yes,i see what your saying and i agree the difference between 0w and 5w is minimal at most.The graph you found is a good tool thanks.I feel the really hardcore oil guys see this minimal difference as being significant.In numbers it seems to be but,in real world situations it is most likely of lesser overall value.In the end at 300k when a car is a rust bucket the engine on either 0w or 5w will still be the best part and most likely still be running.
Try plugging Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0W-30's KV40 and KV100 stat's into the graph and you'll change your mind.
It's has a lighter start-up viscosities than any other 30wt oil and even all 5W-20 conventional oils at temp's below freezing (32F).
Yes,i see what your saying and i agree the difference between 0w and 5w is minimal at most.The graph you found is a good tool thanks.I feel the really hardcore oil guys see this minimal difference as being significant.In numbers it seems to be but,in real world situations it is most likely of lesser overall value.In the end at 300k when a car is a rust bucket the engine on either 0w or 5w will still be the best part and most likely still be running.
Try plugging Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0W-30's KV40 and KV100 stat's into the graph and you'll change your mind.
It's has a lighter start-up viscosities than any other 30wt oil and even all 5W-20 conventional oils at temp's below freezing (32F).
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Actually if they all have the same HTHS vis' then they all have the same operational viscosity at normal operating temp's regardless of what their KV100 spec's might be.
The following post explains why in more detail:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/2001169/
Oh agreed. Which is why I asked Petro-Canada for the HTHS numbers and I guess why I mentioned it.
Actually if they all have the same HTHS vis' then they all have the same operational viscosity at normal operating temp's regardless of what their KV100 spec's might be.
The following post explains why in more detail:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/posts/2001169/
Oh agreed. Which is why I asked Petro-Canada for the HTHS numbers and I guess why I mentioned it.
I don't think it's just "consumer ignorance", unless you also throw in vehicle manufacturer ignorance.
I mean, as I mentioned before, they could list it as an alternative at least. Most people, particularly the "ignorant" ones, have no idea that 0W equates to synthetic. Unless they were to go buy it and see it on the shelves (along with the price). But probably not too many such people are DIY.
At the risk of
I still think it's possible that 5W is better suited to certain vehicles.
I mean, as I mentioned before, they could list it as an alternative at least. Most people, particularly the "ignorant" ones, have no idea that 0W equates to synthetic. Unless they were to go buy it and see it on the shelves (along with the price). But probably not too many such people are DIY.
At the risk of
I'm not sure if this will help you but I started using Esso XD3 0-30 oil back around 1992. I have been using it as well as 0-40 every year starting around Octbober and changing it out in the spring. I use it in my Ford F150 truck as well as heavy equipment with diesel engines. I am so sold on 0-X oils that I will never go another winter with out using them. I presently use PetroCan 0-40 oil and have not had to use my engine block heater for the past close to 20 years. I don't know which oil company fist developed it but I am a firm believer in getting my oil pressure up as soon as possible. Esso is owned by exxonmobile in case you are wondering. Regards
Originally Posted By: glum
I don't think it's just "consumer ignorance", unless you also throw in vehicle manufacturer ignorance.
I think with the manufacturers it may also have to do with 0wXX oils being synthetic or at least a blend. They don't want, real or perceived, higher cost of ownership
I don't think it's just "consumer ignorance", unless you also throw in vehicle manufacturer ignorance.
I think with the manufacturers it may also have to do with 0wXX oils being synthetic or at least a blend. They don't want, real or perceived, higher cost of ownership
Originally Posted By: cp3
Originally Posted By: glum
I don't think it's just "consumer ignorance", unless you also throw in vehicle manufacturer ignorance.
I think with the manufacturers it may also have to do with 0wXX oils being synthetic or at least a blend. They don't want, real or perceived, higher cost of ownership
BINGO!
Originally Posted By: glum
I don't think it's just "consumer ignorance", unless you also throw in vehicle manufacturer ignorance.
I think with the manufacturers it may also have to do with 0wXX oils being synthetic or at least a blend. They don't want, real or perceived, higher cost of ownership
BINGO!
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